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Discussion: "Bring Up The Bodies" Reading and Discussion
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HeverRose |
40. RE: "Bring Up The Bodies" Reading and Discussion
May 16 2012, 9:08 PM EDT
Anne's emblem was a white falcon. I looked it up and the falcon in heraldry means “one who does not rest until the objective is achieved.” Jane's bird was the phoenix. It symbolizes rebirth, hope, purity, chastity, marriage, faith, constancy, summer, eternity, immortality, and light. Do you find this valuable? |
DuchessofMilan |
41. RE: "Bring Up The Bodies" Reading and Discussion
May 18 2012, 2:18 PM EDT
Anyone ready to move on to chapter 2?
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LadyTudorsFan |
42. RE: "Bring Up The Bodies" Reading and Discussion
May 18 2012, 7:35 PM EDT
Today I got to meet THE Hilary Mantel!! :D She did a lecture about her new book "Bringing up the Bodies". She first read an extract from the book describing Cromwell. She said that she's grown to like Cromwell more as she has written the books because she is always left in awe of how he always managed to pull it off and get out of tight corners. The execution scene at the end was written with the babies that had been miscarried by the Anne in mind - "he swaddles it, like a newborn". On talking about the third book, which will be "The Mirror and the Light", the reason for the title was because there was a saying which compared the reign of Henry VIII to a Mirror and the Light. She exclusively revealed that the very first line of "Wolf Hall" - Walter shouting at Thomas "So now get up" - will be the line to end the third book as it is Walter's words that will be in is mind on the scaffold. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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LadyTudorsFan |
43. RE: "Bring Up The Bodies" Reading and Discussion
May 18 2012, 7:37 PM EDT
(Continued because I exceeded the word limit!)On questioning Thomas private life, Hilary revealed that in her research he found him to be very quiet about that side, uncertain whether he was hiding something or that there simply wasn'tanything. However, in the third book, she has written it where he does show some interest in Jane Seymour's sister. With reference to his feelings towards Jane Seymour, when she did her research, she found that he gave a very angry, rare, emotional response to Jane's death, finding people to blame such as the Ladies-in-waiting around her. This may have given some insight into his possible feelings towards her, although as soon as Henry had shown an interest in her, he backed off. Hllary commented on Thomas relationship with Chapuys, how they were opponents, but in some ways admired each other, doing deals for each other. She read another extract from the book and then ended with a quote from Jane Seymour which pretty much summed-up the Tudor court and Anne's fall, that people did not need to plot as Anne had eventually spoke her own way to the scaffold - no woman could do what Anne had done AND live a long life. I have included on my Jane Boleyn page a photo of my book that she signed too at http://www.facebook.com/facebook#!/pages/Jane-Boleyn-Lady-Rochford/355416077859201 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
freya9 |
44. RE: "Bring Up The Bodies" Reading and Discussion
May 19 2012, 5:36 AM EDT
I agree about Anne speaking her way to the scaffold. She thought that she would always have the love of the King so never took enough effort to win the members of the court over. She was just concerned with her own faction. I finished the book this morning, I just could not put it down.
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royalfalcon |
45. RE: "Bring Up The Bodies" Reading and Discussion
May 19 2012, 5:59 AM EDT
Anne might have been her own worse enemy and been too outspoken. However, it does not give anybody the right to dream up false charges against her and destroy other innocent lives in the process..
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HeverRose |
46. RE: "Bring Up The Bodies" Reading and Discussion
May 19 2012, 10:48 AM EDT
I also agree with Anne speaking her way to the scaffold. All things being equal, if she hadn't alienated everyone around her, including, finally the King, she probably would have gone the way of Katherine after the marriage failed.. Henry had just as much turned from Katherine, but couldn't do very much because of people's regard for her. Her most damning "speech" was the comment to Norris, which constituted the most grievous evidence against her. Before that, as we saw in the Timeline thread, the King and Cromwell were still looking for an annulment. So in effect, Anne turned things upon her herself at that moment with that comment. If she had had better relations with people, was more loved and respected, such a comment might have been seen for what it was, a stupid lack of judgement, but as it was, everyone was far too eager to pounce the second they had something to go with. This is just Anne's part in the deal. There was also Mark's "confession," and the King's desire to be rid of her in a very definitive manner. Do you find this valuable? |
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royalfalcon |
47. RE: "Bring Up The Bodies" Reading and Discussion
May 19 2012, 11:44 AM EDT
| Post edited: May 19 2012, 11:45 AM EDT
I personally think that Henry not being able to do much about Katherine was more to do with the fact that her nephew was The Holy Roman Emperor and Henry feared war with Spain. Anne was only protected by Henry's love and once that was gone it left her terribly vulnerableI am enjoying Bring Up The Bodies but I am a little annoyed with the way that already everybody that fell with Anne i.e Norris, Weston et al is portrayed unsympathetically . Do you find this valuable? |
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DuchessofMilan |
48. RE: "Bring Up The Bodies" Reading and Discussion
May 19 2012, 12:26 PM EDT
I am enjoying Bring Up The Bodies but I am a little annoyed with the way that already everybody that fell with Anne i.e Norris, Weston et al is portrayed unsympatheticallyI don't think they were portrayed any better in WF. Cromwell takes against Norris fairly early on. As the book spans the period of only a year, and is about the fall of Anne, I guess Mantel wanted to focus on the main players. Do you find this valuable? |
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freya9 |
49. RE: "Bring Up The Bodies" Reading and Discussion
May 19 2012, 12:26 PM EDT
That was something that annoyed me a little as well. I kept reminding myself that this is all seen through Cromwell's eyes & that we don't have to agree with his interpretation of people & events. As much as I enjoyed the book it would be brilliant if someone wrote a novel set in the Tudor period that didn't take sides. What is also interesting about the book is that a lot of the discussions about it centre on the fact that Mantel is very pro-Cromwell yet she has him delibrately set out to destroy the Boleyn faction which is debatable. She also includes in the plot the rumour that Cromwell orginally left England to avoid a murder charge which may have been unfounded gossip. Having said that there is a piece at the back of the novel in which Mantel states that this is a fiction and she is not claiming that she is giving the undoubted truth about what happend. A refreshing change from certain writers of historical fiction who claim that they are.
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DuchessofMilan |
50. RE: "Bring Up The Bodies" Reading and Discussion
May 19 2012, 12:34 PM EDT
I think it would be difficult to write a novel on this subject without taking sides. Some of the characters involved are pretty unpleasant. Taking into account the differing standards of yesteryear, Henry would be a man deserving of a slap in any generation.
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HeverRose |
51. RE: "Bring Up The Bodies" Reading and Discussion
May 19 2012, 12:52 PM EDT
| Post edited: May 19 2012, 1:47 PM EDT
Extremely good point Carol. The political implications were of course, considerable. But I also think Henry wanted to be admired by the people, seen as a good Christian king, so I think, in addition to the very great political concerns, he personally walked a tightrope there regarding Catherine and Mary, too. . I think anyone with any sense of PR, which Henry had, ( he wasn't really a tyrant) would have this as a concern.. Yes, Weston is very unsympathetic in Chapter One, a real punk. In Wolf Hall, we meet four of the five men here and there ( George is not really seen much) and they are always obnoxious So here we have to ask ourselves: are we to think they were really like that or are they exaggerated in Cromwell's view of them, since we are seeing things through his eyes? The only corroborating evidence in Chapter One is that Gregory and Rafe are also offended by Weston, but then, they are Cromwell's family.. There is no evidence in history of these men behaving thus toward Cromwell, but the question to ask is how likely is it, given human nature, and young men's conventional behaviour in such cirumstances, for them to have been like this and for Cromwell to have taken offence? It is an extrapolation, to be sure, and each reader has to decide to what extent it "works," or is believeable. Do you find this valuable? |
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HeverRose |
52. RE: "Bring Up The Bodies" Reading and Discussion
May 19 2012, 12:55 PM EDT
I was replying to Carols post above and did not see everyone's responses!!
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DuchessofMilan |
53. RE: "Bring Up The Bodies" Reading and Discussion
May 19 2012, 12:57 PM EDT
Just a few thoughts on chapter 2. CrowsIt was a nice touch introducing Gardiner the same way we met in WH; except this time he is entering a room as Cromwell is exiting. I really like their dialogue; Gardiner, though always angry, has quite a dry humour. You have to sympathise with how difficult it must have been for people re the issue of what to call Katherine. A slip of the tongue to the wrong person and that could be it for you. Cromwell's plans for improving infrastructure and employment are very contemporary and show how forward thinking he was. Any thoughts on who the crows are? There is only on mention of crows in the chapter and that is regards to lawyers. The only thing I came up with is the following; Crows are associated with death so it could be foreshadowing. HM is a great one for incorporating the myths of Britain and crows are deeply ingrained in the Tower of London. A mythical King of the past called Bran The Blessed (blessed crow) asked for his head to be buried on White Hill, now the location of the Tower of London. The head is buried facing towards France so to stop an invasion. Do you find this valuable? |
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DuchessofMilan |
54. RE: "Bring Up The Bodies" Reading and Discussion
May 19 2012, 1:02 PM EDT
There is no evidence in history of these men behaving thus toward Cromwell, but the question to ask is how likely is it, given human nature, and young men's conventional behaviour in such cirumstances, for them to have been like this and for Cromwell to have taken offence? It is an extrapolation, to be sure, and each reader has to decide to what extent it "works," or is believeable.I do think they would have been very sneering re; Cromwell. I doubt they would have done it to his face but there is no doubt it must of annoyed them greatly to see such a low-born person rise so high. Do you find this valuable? |
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HeverRose |
55. RE: "Bring Up The Bodies" Reading and Discussion
May 19 2012, 1:08 PM EDT
| Post edited: May 19 2012, 1:24 PM EDT
The only way to write a novel without taking sides is to break it up into differing points of view, like you could have Anne, Henry, Chapuys, Cromwell, all telling things from their perspective. Allson Weir did that with Innocent Traitor, in which all the people in Jane Grey's life took turns relating things from their poiint of view.There have been novels about Anne told from a lady in waiting's perspective, someone close to Anne but sympathetic to her. I am thinking of that novel To Die For that came out recently. Even if you had an omniscient narrator, there would still be a slant, I think, in telling the story. Every human consiousness contains a point of view, so you cannot really escape it. Do you find this valuable? |
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HeverRose |
56. RE: "Bring Up The Bodies" Reading and Discussion
May 19 2012, 1:11 PM EDT
| Post edited: May 19 2012, 1:34 PM EDT
"Any thoughts on who the crows are?"Just a quick answer here, Duchess: Gardiner is the crow. In WH he was described as crowlike, and yes, he is the foreshadowing of Cromwell's death. Do you find this valuable? |
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HeverRose |
57. RE: "Bring Up The Bodies" Reading and Discussion
May 19 2012, 1:19 PM EDT
| Post edited: May 19 2012, 1:55 PM EDT
"It was a nice touch introducing Gardiner the same way we met in WH; except this time he is entering a room as Cromwell is exiting"I totally agree. Here are the lines: In Wolf Hall, Chapter Two: "So: Stephen Gardiner. Going out as he's coming in." In BUTB, Chapter Two: "Stephen Gardiner! Coming in as he's going out..." A little different punctuation, which makes it even more interesting as a mirror image of each other. In the first instance Cromwell is annoyed at seeing him. In the second, Cromwell is surprised. Do you find this valuable? |
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LadyTudorsFan |
58. RE: "Bring Up The Bodies" Reading and Discussion
May 19 2012, 2:08 PM EDT
"Anne might have been her own worse enemy and been too outspoken. However, it does not give anybody the right to dream up false charges against her and destroy other innocent lives in the process.."Yes, I do agree with you. From Hilary's point of view though she was saying that it was the things that Anne had said that made things worse for her. For example, the "Dead Mean's Shoes" comment definitely could not been said in that court to a King already a little paranoid of his position without provoking some suspicion. Also, there was the comment she had made about Mark Smeaton which did make some people suspicious. She basically walked into the trap. Do you find this valuable? |
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LadyTudorsFan |
59. RE: "Bring Up The Bodies" Reading and Discussion
May 19 2012, 2:10 PM EDT
In her talk, Hilary had also pointed out how Thomas kept Henry away from other people deliberately because he knew that Henry could be easily swayed - one minute he would curse someone, the next he would forgive them!Hilary said that she liked Chapuys - she referred to him as the "biggest" gossip. He wrote to Spain long letters, two or three times a week! She got the sense that Thomas knew what his fate would be, particularly after Anne's execution. There is a line towards the end of Bringing up the Bodies where "Call-Me" says to Cromwell that if this is what he could do to the Cardinal's enemies, what could he do to the King? As we know, later in 1540, Thomas Cromwell was accused of plotting against the King. As she wrote the books, Hilary said she was also almost shouting at Cromwell "Get Married!!!" as later in 1540, he is accused of plotting to marry Princess Mary to make himself King. Maybe if he'd married earlier, this would not have given his enemies at court a bone to knaw at? Do you find this valuable? |
