Location: The Tudors Wiki Discussion Forum

Discussion: Roland de VelevilleReported This is a featured thread

Category: Discussion Forum / History
Showing 9 posts
littleone15
littleone15
Roland de Veleville
Feb 21 2012, 7:41 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 21 2012, 7:41 PM EST
I am curious as to what other people think: Was Sir Roland de Velville (de Velevill, de Veleville) really King Henry VII's illegitimate son, and half-brother to Henry VIII, or do you side with S.B. Chrimes that he was not?
I am on the side that he was. Looking at the concepts and opinions that Professor Chrimes uses as evidence, there are many, many holes. He seems to have used incorrect dates and locations, and some faulty arguments. Him, and his supporters and some historians that use him as a source, even have the incorrect battle in which he was knighted!
One of the ones that sticks with me is the argument that, had he been a half-brother to Henry VIII, his granddaughter Katherine Tudor of Berain would have been a cousin to Queen Elizabeth I, and when Katherine's eldest son Thomas Salisbury (Salusbury) was implicated as part of the Babington plot, Elizabeth would have never executed him because he would have been kin. I think even the people who just watch the show and don't know the history can pull that theory apart! Him being kin to the Queen made him a bigger target, not a smaller one!
I think that he was made constable of Beaumaris castle in Wales, was a servant of the body to Henry VIII, as well as was generally accepted as Henry VII's son in their time and until 1967 it was never questioned, all proves a royal bastard.
Anyone else's thoughts? I would love to hear something from either side of the fence.
This hits me deep, because he's one of my great-great-great-(etc.)-grandfathers. If he was illegitimate but still blood, that makes King Henry VIII one of my great-uncles. Being a descendant of a Tudor is cool to begin with (and Katherine of Berain's father was a Welsh Tudor anyway), but having to guess and pick through the differing historian's opinions can be either enlightening or upsetting. Do you find this valuable?    
princess212
princess212
1. RE: Roland de Veleville
Feb 21 2012, 8:29 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 21 2012, 8:29 PM EST
From the little I have heard of Henry VII, I did not think he had mistresses. But I will have to look into it. Do you find this valuable?    
littleone15
littleone15
2. RE: Roland de Veleville
Feb 22 2012, 1:28 AM EST | Post edited: Feb 22 2012, 1:28 AM EST
You're correct that he never had a recorded mistress while married to Elizabeth of York. However, Roland was born when Henry was in exile in Brittany, about 15-16 years old. His mother is listed simply as, "An unknown Breton Woman" which has caused speculation as to her identity, because she most likely died before he was able to actually invade and win the battle for the throne against Richard III. Roland came with him, lived in the royal household and was allowed to joust even though he had no noble title, which Henry VII specifically allowed. In fact, he was considered an almost obsessive jouster, and won many tournaments. I'm trying to remember off the top of my head the ones he was listed as participating and doing well in, and I remember the one for the birth of Arthur he participated in. It caused a bit of an issue because nobody but nobles and knights could participate, but the King waived that requirement for him. And he was knighted on the field in 1497 at the Battle of Blackheath by the King, which was his only given title during Henry VII's life. This was the battle when Perkin Warbeck was finally taken prisoner. It was under Henry VIII that he prospered and was given extreme elevation, and pensions. With his last name, there has been ponderering that his mother might have been a noble daughter that was in the court of Duke Francis of Brittany, because at the time Henry did not know if he would ever return to England, let alone rule it as king. There was a family of that name who were the Counts of Durtal which is near Angers.
By the way, most documents show that Elizabeth of York was brought to court to be his wife, but he did not actually go through with marrying her until she was pregnant with Arthur. But he was by all accounts loyal, honest and loving with her. But he still allowed Roland to live within their family and with the royal children. Do you find this valuable?    
princess212
princess212
3. RE: Roland de Veleville
Feb 22 2012, 1:46 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 22 2012, 1:46 PM EST
This is some interesting information, but don't you think Henry VIII would have felt threatened by him? Do you find this valuable?    
littleone15
littleone15
4. RE: Roland de Veleville
Feb 22 2012, 2:47 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 22 2012, 2:47 PM EST
I don't think he was. Right after he became king he gave him the constableship of Beaumaris in Wales, and Roland went there to live. It was one of the strongest and most important castles, and it seems like he trusted him to hold it for him. Roland still came to court for events and tournaments, but he lived at Beaumaris until he died. He married Agnes Griffith, who was part of the most powerful Welsh families at the time, which I don't think would have happened if he was just a favored courtier.
It seems like he spent his whole life as a bastard (similar to Henry Fitzroy, but he lived much longer!), so I think there was no hint that he could take the throne. After all, documents fail to list the name of his mother!
I am writing a series of books on this idea, and I'm putting forth that, while they weren't married that Henry treated Roland's mother like he later did to Elizabeth of York, promising to marry her when he either becomes king or enough time has passed that nobody cares about him anymore, and then taking a lesson from the Beauforts promises to petition to legitimize their children. But, in my fictional world, she dies before he gets the chance, and leaves Roland a bastard forever. Do you find this valuable?    
juliana-angela
juliana-angela
5. RE: Roland de Veleville
Feb 22 2012, 2:57 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 22 2012, 2:57 PM EST
I agree, I think that it is quite likely that Roland was Henry's son.

He was certainly favoured by Henry VII. I don't think Henry VIII would have seen him as a threat because he was not acknowledged and his father was far too prudent and conscious of his own dubious claim to the throne to even consider him as a possible heir.

Perhaps Henry did not acknowledge Roland because he wanted to preserve his image as an 'upright' young man and contrast his rectitude with the promiscuous behaviour of the Yorkist kings? 1  out of 1 found this valuable. Do you?    
princess212
princess212
6. RE: Roland de Veleville
Feb 22 2012, 4:12 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 22 2012, 4:12 PM EST
Yes, I see your point, but I don't know. The reason I was thinking of Henry being threatened is because he was paranoid. He was paranoid enough to execute the Poles who were his cousins and throw a little boy in the tower. I have even read that Henry felt threatened by his life long friend Charles Brandon. And what if Roland receiving those benefits were due to royal favourism? Do you find this valuable?    
littleone15
littleone15
7. RE: Roland de Veleville
Feb 22 2012, 5:57 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 22 2012, 5:57 PM EST
Roland was 17 years older then Henry, and died in 1535. This was long before the Poles, to give an excellent time reference, Beaumaris was then granted to Henry Norris, who though never went there in any record, also held it until his death. I think the age difference, and the youth of Henry when Roland passed is partly what protected him. I think Roland's family's deep ties with Wales protected later generations, though it did not save my great-uncle Thomas Salisbury. In truth, though, he was not personally trying to grab the throne, just supported Catholicism, though all of our family records how them as Quaker, at least by the reign of Charles I.
I believe I read somewhere that Roland was friends with Charles Brandon, and Brandon was given a title in Wales, though he didn't live there. They were about 6 years apart in age, I believe, so closer then his brothers.
He seems to have gained most of his favors and positions under his brother. From the records I've seen Henry VII gave him some favor, but only knighted him after he showed skill on the battlefield, and other then including him in the court activities and living with the family, he gave him nothing else. The date of when he received Beaumaris was so close to the start of the reign of Henry VIII that it's not 100% clear if it was totally the brother's idea, or if the father had been intending it and the brother pushed it forward. He was included in a large grant of a pension which was more then he would have needed to protect the castle and that part of Wales, much like Brandon's charge there, and it was included in the stripping by parliament of what they considered frivolous gifts to Henry VIII's favorites, and later was restored by Henry VIII.
I do think what save him was that he must have known he was a bastard and could not have the throne to start with, that he mostly stayed in Wales other then for a few events, and that he passed in 1535. Do you find this valuable?    
littleone15
littleone15
8. RE: Roland de Veleville
Feb 22 2012, 6:23 PM EST | Post edited: Feb 22 2012, 6:23 PM EST
"I agree, I think that it is quite likely that Roland was Henry's son.

He was certainly favoured by Henry VII. I don't think Henry VIII would have seen him as a threat because he was not acknowledged and his father was far too prudent and conscious of his own dubious claim to the throne to even consider him as a possible heir.

Perhaps Henry did not acknowledge Roland because he wanted to preserve his image as an 'upright' young man and contrast his rectitude with the promiscuous behaviour of the Yorkist kings?"
That is a great idea! Especially when Richard III was looking to marry Elizabeth of York himself, it would put him at a moral high ground to never be disloyal to his wife. I think Margaret Beaufort had a lot to do with his behavior as well. I think she kept a strong arm on his behavior, and made him keep to her staunch Catholic ideals.
I'm my fictional story, I have her demanding Roland's removal from the court before Elizabeth arrives, so as not to offend her. But then I have Henry intervening and hiding him until she is pregnant with Arthur, and then taking him back in. I know it's a piece of fiction and I originally had planned to send him away to Wales, but the numerous pieces of actual evidence put him there at court, so I am hiding him with the palace guard for the time being, and aging Charles Brandon a few years to get them together young. I don't want to go too far from the truth, but it's fun to mess around and come up with ideas for what happened! I like what you said, and with permission, may make that a comment at some point, maybe once he is moved in with the royal family? I could have Elizabeth get slightly upset, and maybe he can make her a promise that he will never make another? Do you find this valuable?