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Discussion: Secrets and Lies: Another Boleyn Girl
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Hisame |
Secrets and Lies: Another Boleyn Girl
Jan 20 2012, 2:08 AM EST
I love how history changes, our perception changes and what we think we knew is challenged. I recently read "The Lady in Tower: The Fall of Anne Boleyn" - and I was stunned by what Alison Wier wrote, especially about Anne being a Catholic when we have it hammered into us that she was a crusading protestant. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you?
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freya9 |
1. RE: Secrets and Lies: Another Boleyn Girl
Jan 21 2012, 9:56 AM EST
Because of the way the Catholic and Protestant churches developed it's easy to look back and assume people were more militant than they actually were. Anne rejected a book presented to her because it denied transubstantiation. (She was far more influenced by the more moderate French reformers than the Germans). Many of the Tudor nobility, such as the Duke of Norfolk, whilst conservatives were still anti-clerical. On the subject of faith Isabella & Ferdinand of Spain despite being styled the Catholic Monarchs did a great deal to reduce the power of the clergy in their own county. Which shows just what a complicated issue religion was in the Tudor era.
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LadyTudorsFan |
2. RE: Secrets and Lies: Another Boleyn Girl
Jan 22 2012, 5:13 PM EST
Very true. Henry himself was very complicated when it came to his religious inclinations - on the one hand he wanted to break away from the Catholic Church and makes himself Head of the Church of England, yet on the other, he was fearful of Lutheranism and didn't want England to be swayed too much away from Catholicism.
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freya9 |
3. RE: Secrets and Lies: Another Boleyn Girl
Jan 23 2012, 2:21 PM EST
Henry seemed to want a middle way. Although sadly this usually meant being even handed by having both conservatives and reformers executed.
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LadyTudorsFan |
4. RE: Secrets and Lies: Another Boleyn Girl
Jan 23 2012, 5:53 PM EST
Yeah, it could also be argued that it was also whatever suited him. It was convenient for example for him to be Head of the Church of England and take all the Church's land and money! :)
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Anne'sCurls |
5. RE: Secrets and Lies: Another Boleyn Girl
Jan 24 2012, 6:56 PM EST
Anne was a reformer not a Protestant, it's the reformation angle and the fact that she and Henry's "great matter" was linked to Martin Luther that makes people think she was a Protestant; plus her being the mother of Elizabeth. The fact that she was Catholic is not a change in view point it is what has always been the case. Henry was schizo when it came to religion. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
henry's7thwife |
6. RE: Secrets and Lies: Another Boleyn Girl
Jan 25 2012, 3:07 AM EST
"I recently read "The Lady in Tower: The Fall of Anne Boleyn" - and I was stunned by what Alison Wier wrote, especially about Anne being a Catholic when we have it hammered into us that she was a crusading protestant. "Well, first, let us not rely on anything that Weir says. She says so many things just to get herself noticed. If you want to learn about Anne, why not read the Eric Ives book on her? Apparently, it is a scholarly book based on real facts. Anne was born a Catholic because Christianity = Catholicism before 1517. As she grew up, the Boleyns started flirting with Luther's new ideas and that included Anne. However, at this stage Anne was not a Protestant because the term itself was not coined until much after Anne's death. Technically, she was not a Lutheran either, because she still held on to many traditional beliefs such as mass, and confessions. She was a Reformist. Btw, I would not call her a crusading protestant either, because she didn't really do much crusading for her faith. Do you find this valuable? |
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freya9 |
7. RE: Secrets and Lies: Another Boleyn Girl
Jan 25 2012, 3:23 PM EST
Anne seemed to find Luther's ideas too extreme for her. Although the fact that Luther opposed Henry's annulment from Catherine couldn't have helped.
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HeverRose |
8. RE: Secrets and Lies: Another Boleyn Girl
Jan 26 2012, 11:49 AM EST
We are looking at everything in hindsight. At the time ( 1530s) religion was in flux, unlike earlier eras where it was quite stable.I think both Henry and Anne were opportunists rather than truly devout. Henry was more traditional...He did not really want too much change in ideas or concepts save for that one part about him at the head instead of the Pope. So for him it was about authority ( or rather having his way) than about religion per se. Anne I think was attracted to new ideas because SHE was a new idea...a commoner marrying a king while he was still married. Neither of them strike me as particularily interested in religion outside of their agendas. 1 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you? |
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henry's7thwife |
9. RE: Secrets and Lies: Another Boleyn Girl
Jan 26 2012, 1:13 PM EST
HeverRose,Actually, both Henry and Anne were much into theological debates. In fact, they used to love fighting about it a lot. Anne also used to love talking about religion with her brother, George. Henry welcomed all opportunity to debate on religion. He was highly interested in theology, actually. So, it is not correct to say they were not particularly interested in religion outside their agendas. I would put it more like they were not fanatics in a world where fanaticism on both catholic and protestant side was sweeping through the country. But both of them certainly had a very deep and lively interest in religion. 3 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you? |
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HeverRose |
10. RE: Secrets and Lies: Another Boleyn Girl
Jan 26 2012, 3:14 PM EST
I am not saying that they did not have a lively interest in relegion..but then religion was a larger part of people's lives back then. It is something that brought people together, like television does today.Anne and Henry both strike me as far too egotistical to be really devout. You mention fighting and debate...The thrill in such activity is uually exactly that: it is in the fighting and debating. Arguing and debating are very ego driven activities. It is about talk, about winning over the other side to your way of thinking, it is about conquest and persuasion. It is not about behaviour or how you really are. Neither of them behaved in a way that showed they were devout. They may have thrown a few bones here and there for show but I just don't see the piety or devout feeling that would have to exist in their hearts. I rather think both behaved in a very self driven and self serving manner. Maybe I am setting the bar too high!! LOL, or am too cynical, but to me being devout has a direct correlation to humility which neither Henry or Anne possessed. 3 out of 6 found this valuable. Do you? |
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freya9 |
11. RE: Secrets and Lies: Another Boleyn Girl
Jan 26 2012, 5:17 PM EST
I see your point which seems to be that as the Christian faith tells people to be humble & Henry & Anne where proud people then they weren't true to the spirit of the faith they professed. But if someone has a character flaw then does that mean that the religion they practice must be a fraud ? Do you really think that because someone takes pleasure in debating about faith that therefore their opinions are false ? A Tudor nobleman wouldn't think it a contradiction to be a good christian but be proud of his blood & to think people of lower ranks his natural inferiors & treat them accordingly. It would have been part of his upbringing in a class structure of which the Church itself played an active role.
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LadyTudorsFan |
12. RE: Secrets and Lies: Another Boleyn Girl
Jan 26 2012, 5:23 PM EST
I think it is often said that Anne's marriage to Henry was unprecedented as she was "common", but in a way, I don't think she was a commoner. Her father was already well established in court and I think it was her grandad or great-grandad that was Mayor of London. Also, her mother was a Howard who were the cream of the crop when it come to nobility and it was certainly a fact Anne herself was quite proud of. So looking at it in that way, she was a lot more priveledged than most women in her day. Also, the fact that she was highly educated and spend her childhood in the French court already set her apart from the average Tudor woman.
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HeverRose |
13. RE: Secrets and Lies: Another Boleyn Girl
Jan 26 2012, 6:46 PM EST
" 1 see your point which seems to be that as the Christian faith tells people to be humble & Henry & Anne where proud people then they weren't true to the spirit of the faith they professed. But if someone has a character flaw then does that mean that the religion they practice must be a fraud ? Do you really think that because someone takes pleasure in debating about faith that therefore their opinions are false ? A Tudor nobleman wouldn't think it a contradiction to be a good christian but be proud of his blood & to think people of lower ranks his natural inferiors & treat them accordingly. It would have been part of his upbringing in a class structure of which the Church itself played an active role.If one thinks in terms of theology, I suppose that one's conduct does not come into it but if you look at Christianity ( or any religion) as a code of behavior then yes, of course. You either live accordingly or you don't. And you are right: there are many people who consider themselves good Christians while they treat other people horribly.. I can't know what Henry or Anne were thinking while they were debating religion. Also, some theological aspects do not have any bearing on the kind of person one is, such as transubstantiation. You can be an awful person and debate that.. Anne and Henry were both intellectuals and as such they loved to discuss and debate topics. I can only see what has come down to us regarding how they treated other people.. I am not passing a judgement either. I understand that we don't know everything about them, and information passed down to us may be prejudiced or incorrect. Also, nobody is perfect. I suppose that one cannot make a point that something was missing because of the absense of evidence. All I said is that they don't strike me as particularily devout . That does not mean they were not. Do you think Wolsey was devout? Do you find this valuable? |
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henry's7thwife |
14. RE: Secrets and Lies: Another Boleyn Girl
Jan 26 2012, 10:56 PM EST
"Anne and Henry both strike me as far too egotistical to be really devout. You mention fighting and debate...The thrill in such activity is uually exactly that: it is in the fighting and debating. Arguing and debating are very ego driven activities. It is about talk, about winning over the other side to your way of thinking, it is about conquest and persuasion. It is not about behaviour or how you really are. Errrmmmm ... religion has nothing to do with humility and everything to do with rituals. Henry and Anne only followed the general rule of the times and that was follow religion, talk about it, display how devout you are by showing off more and more about it. How many of the Church Popes or Cardinals showed humility or devoutness (the way you define it)? Even most of the reformers who fought for their faith and were ready to be burnt showed the kind of pride that Christ had advised against? I mean, it all was pinned down to their knowing best how to pray? I don't think you understand religion in it's medieval concept. It was there to be shown off to people, much like you would show off your college degree today. You were less than dirt if you did not "have" religion. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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henry's7thwife |
15. RE: Secrets and Lies: Another Boleyn Girl
Jan 26 2012, 11:03 PM EST
"Neither of them behaved in a way that showed they were devout. They may have thrown a few bones here and there for show but I just don't see the piety or devout feeling that would have to exist in their hearts.Actually, they were very devout (as per the standards of their day), only their public lives are more open to interpretation than their private lives. A large part of their lives was spent on religious stuff. I'd say religion may have lost its lustre for Henry in his later years, and he might have got confused about it, but he was very devout, and I don't think Anne ever came towards being disillusioned with religion. It's a bit difficult to realize what religion was like to these people. It was not at all about humility as you claim. There must hardly ever be anyone humble in the Tudor court. They wouldn't be there in the first place if they were humble, lol. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
MsSquirrly |
16. RE: Secrets and Lies: Another Boleyn Girl
Jan 26 2012, 11:56 PM EST
| Post edited: Jan 26 2012, 11:59 PM EST
I agree with Freya9 and H7thwife....even KoA who everyone considers pious and devout was also called proud...so was Jane Seymour. It was part and parcel of being a royal. I tend to think, if you didn't act like that, that those down the lower part of the totem pole would have been very confused. And of course, we are branding someone's personality by hearsay and in most instances especially Anne Boleyn, by unsympathetic, biased & hateful hearsay.HeverRose, if you have Ives biography of Anne Boleyn, he has a whole chapter on her personal religion. Her influences being Marguerite of Angouleme as a teenager and later in life she wrote about her affection for her... a woman who was very much involved in the reformation movement. She collected many evangelical books. Her brother was known to be a big influence on her and Chapuys said, you could not have dinner with him without him discussing the bible and boring you with reformer ideas. Anne was not only involved with the relief of the poor..and it is known she gave more to the poor than any other of Henry's wives....but also education and scholarship and was remembered for being a generous patron of students. She was instrumental in saving reformer Nicholas Bourbon from execution. Her chaplain Matthew Parker ..also a reformer...believed that she had put him in charge of her daughter's religious upbringing. The bible in English was prominent in her rooms as were several other religious books. She definitely had a strong religious belief... she and Henry attended several church services daily. As you know, you can't judge someone else's belief, especially centuries ago, by our definition of what being a christian means. 3 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you? |
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henry's7thwife |
17. RE: Secrets and Lies: Another Boleyn Girl
Jan 27 2012, 12:12 AM EST
Wasn't there something in Starkey's book about Henry's religion? I do know the King attended mass five times a day (only 2 or 3 times when hunting, though ;)) And he observed the fasting rituals quite closely. Btw, I really wouldn't know what being religious is. I see planes crashing into buildings, then I see poor people being given food. I see bombs blowing up in Norway, then people of the same religion operate hospitals. How can we say religion inspires only one thing, and not the other? I think it inspires both according to the kind of person you are. But this is totally going off-track, lol Do you find this valuable? |
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HeverRose |
18. RE: Secrets and Lies: Another Boleyn Girl
Jan 27 2012, 12:43 PM EST
It is great to have people talking. There has not been much discussion lately.Religion is different things to different people,, hence the wars fought over it and the constant haggling over religion that have been so much a part of history. Today we are allowed to make our personal interpretation of what it means. Back then people were debating what they considered absolute truth. In any religion you have doctrine, you have ritual and you have personal behaviour. A devout person in my mind does well in all three, without of course, being perfect, since nobody is that.. A person can attend five masses one day and stab someone in the back the next. That person may still be religious but I wouldnt call them devout. When I think of the devout people of that time, I basically think of Jane Grey, Katherine of Aragon, Katherine Parr, Anne Askew and I would say Thomas Cranmer. I always thought he was for real. I could be wrong. They are all flawed, and some quite proud, but they made their religion a bigger part of their hearts and how they lived. I just don't see Henry VIIl and Anne Boleyn in that same league. I think Henry and Anne thought of themselves and their needs/requirements before anything else. This is not a value judgement. They were just worldly, not spiritual. Anne did realize her shortcoming in the end, if the story is true about her asking Lady Kingston to ask forgiveness of Mary. I don't know if any such moment was experienced by Henry. 0 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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henry's7thwife |
19. RE: Secrets and Lies: Another Boleyn Girl
Jan 27 2012, 1:11 PM EST
| Post edited: Jan 27 2012, 1:13 PM EST
Jane Grey was someone who actually spoke against her parents and wrote really venomous letters against Mary, while drumming up support.Katherine of Aragon was mentored by Torquemada in her youth. Enough said, I believe. I don't know much about Kate Parr or Anne Askew to make any comments, but yeah Cranmer was a sweetie, lol. I am sorry, I just don't see the people you have mentioned as devout or "nice". They all had their own agendas. I personally believe Henry was a nicer person than either Jane Grey or KoA. And perhaps, Anne was nicer too. I don't know about Henry asking for forgiveness from anyone, because he was second only to God. That's how the system was, and how he lived it. It did not make him less of a person, any more than it did Anne, while she was Queen. Religion has nothing to do with personal behaviour. Nice people will use religion to be nice, and nasty people will use religion to be nasty. Do you find this valuable? |
