Location: The Tudors Wiki Discussion Forum

Discussion: "Wolf Hall" Reading and Discussion

Category: Discussion Forum / General Discussion

Report thread
Watch thread
Share this

Previous | 1 2 3 4 5 | Next > Last

HeverRose	20. RE: "Wolf Hall" Reading and Discussion Jan 28 2012, 1:38 PM EST \| Post edited: Jan 28 2012, 1:44 PM EST I absolutely agree. Sometimes I look at him and say "why did you just say THAT???" This is especially true later when he becomes more bold and sure of himself and starts to repsond to Anne and to others with some rather sarcastic comments. The reader is asked to take a very complex role in this book, which is one of the reasons why I love this book so much. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
HeverRose	21. RE: "Wolf Hall" Reading and Discussion Jan 28 2012, 2:02 PM EST \| Post edited: Jan 28 2012, 2:21 PM EST A little aside: I saw the movie "The Grey" yesterday, which stars Liam Neeson as a plane crash survivor in Alaska somewhere who with several other men has to fight with a pack of wolves. Of course this made me think of Cromwell. What else? Anyway, it is fascinating how the wolves first circle and watch then get bolder and then go for the kill. They have a consiousness that the humans don't understand for they seem beastlike and irrational to them but who in fact are smarter. There is the forshadowing already here in the novel ( in 1530) of Cromwell and the five men who will be executed with Anne later. He does not like them. They are disrespecting Wolsey.They are arrogant. He is watching them like a wolf. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
freya9	22. RE: "Wolf Hall" Reading and Discussion Jan 29 2012, 7:33 AM EST \| Post edited: Jan 29 2012, 7:44 AM EST I am just halfway through re-reading the book but I thought Cromwell quite liked Henry Norris. There is a part of the book where Cromwell goes to see the King and of all the gentlemen around him Norris is the only one to acknowledge Cromwell's prescence. I hope that Bringing up the bodies will not have the Cromwell-was-behind-it-all conspiracy theory with Anne & the others being made horrible to execuse it. Or making them all guilty so that Cromwell is still a sympathetic character. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
HeverRose	23. RE: "Wolf Hall" Reading and Discussion Jan 29 2012, 12:48 PM EST \| Post edited: Jan 29 2012, 12:52 PM EST I am also halfway through the re reading. How marvelous to read it alongside someone on the other side of the world!! As to Norris,though, consider: We first meet him in the "Visitation" chapter when he rides up to Wolsey to tell him that the King sends him comfort and a ring. During this exchange Wolsey falls off his mule to the ground, so we have this scene going on with the great cardinal on his knees in the mud. Norris the courtier is standing above Wolsey pretty much feeding him BS about the king's plans for him. Up comes Cromwell, who is watching this. Cromwell asks Norris for these assurances in writing, and in their exchange catches him out in his double talk. Then he thinks ("he" being Cromwell) " How simple it would be, if he were allowed to reach down and shake some straight answers out of Norris." He muses about how in this world one "gets on" by being a "subtle crook" rather than a bright or original person. And so his conclusion : "Somehow he thinks that's what Norris is, and he feels an irrational dislike taking root, and he tries to dismiss it, because he prefers his dislikes rational..." Later he tells Johane that "Henry Norris is the bane of my life."' Norris is the extreme courtier and what is his job? the Groom of the Stool. But the pivotal scene is the one after Wolsey's death where a little play is put on to lampoon the cardinal. Four masked "devils" carry the "cardinal" off to Hell. After the play, Cromwell follows the actors behind a screen to see who they are .As they take off their masks, they turn out to be: Henry Norris, George Boleyn, Francis Weston and William Brereton. For those readers who don't know the story this is nothing. But for you and me,who know how it will go, it is everything!!! Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
freya9	24. RE: "Wolf Hall" Reading and Discussion Jan 30 2012, 3:14 PM EST Were this men really the ones who carried out the masque or is this just a bit of symbolism ? Post reply Do you find this valuable?
HeverRose	25. RE: "Wolf Hall" Reading and Discussion Jan 30 2012, 3:52 PM EST \| Post edited: Jan 30 2012, 3:58 PM EST freya, do you mean was there an actual masque documented in history and were these people in it? I think probably not. Others might know whether such a play actually was performed at court. Even though the novel is very well researched, it is a novel and Mantel is creating an alternative ( but possible) interpretation of the events. It looks like she is setting us up for a personal vandetta between Cromwell and these 4 men at least. Something is up, at any rate. In all the controversy of Cromwell's involvement in Anne's fall and of the people who were executed with her, nobody has ever proffered the notion that it MIGHT have been personal. We won't know really until the sequel comes out but my feeling is there is some foundation being laid for that. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
HeverRose	26. RE: "Wolf Hall" Reading and Discussion Jan 30 2012, 5:36 PM EST \| Post edited: Jan 30 2012, 5:37 PM EST Mars in Scorpio Mantel gives hints like a puzzlemaster. She loves to drop clues here and there that you as the reader should take note of. In the chapter "Arrange Your Face" the astrologer Kratzer talls Cromwell about his chart: "if Mars is not in Scorpio, I don't know my trade." Well that, dear reader, is a clue. The character of someone who has Mars in Scorpio is generally defined by astrologers as one who, under a calm and pleasent demeanor , harbors the most intense passion , a relentless pursuit of their will and desires, the ability to transform themselves and their environment, a great capacity for revenge and a steely determination to attain their goals. It is not someone whose path you want to cross. Even though Cromwell is not shown to us as such a person quite yet, it is something we need to be aware of and should not forget. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
LadyTudorsFan	27. RE: "Wolf Hall" Reading and Discussion Jan 30 2012, 5:47 PM EST "Cromwell follows the actors behind a screen to see who they are .As they take off their masks, they turn out to be: Henry Norris, George Boleyn, Francis Weston and William Brereton. For those readers who don't know the story this is nothing. But for you and me,who know how it will go, it is everything!!!" That's well pointed out! I never noticed that before and I agree it definitely sets the scene for later on. It's really clever move from the author. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
freya9	28. RE: "Wolf Hall" Reading and Discussion Jan 31 2012, 8:48 AM EST I read that a masque about Wolsey was performed shortly after his death and that it was most likely put on by the Duke of Norfolk. It wasn't mentioned who performed or watched it. I suppose seeing as all the men mentioned were members of the court there is a possibility that they did take part. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
HeverRose	29. RE: "Wolf Hall" Reading and Discussion Jan 31 2012, 11:08 AM EST Such a masque was also done on The Tudors. I don't remember what it was about, though. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
freya9	30. RE: "Wolf Hall" Reading and Discussion Jan 31 2012, 1:58 PM EST On the Tudors it had a fat cardinal being pulled to hell by demons. The description in Wolf Hall is the same so perhaps it is true. Or it could be one of those Tudor stories like Anne's extra finger that was the result of chinese whispers. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
HeverRose	31. RE: "Wolf Hall" Reading and Discussion Jan 31 2012, 3:41 PM EST \| Post edited: Jan 31 2012, 4:01 PM EST Sounds like the same play, I do recall though that in the show it was Cromwell who staged the masque. That puts a completely different spin on it!!!! Pere Wolsey Wolf Hall follows in the tradition of the Father/Son theme that goes back to Homer. Wolsey is Cromwell's substitute father and Cromwell' s loyalty to him is based on that relationship. So getting back to the masque, in Mantel, you can feel Cromwell's seething anger as he watches, appalled, as his "father" the cardinal, is being laughed at and ridiculed in that little production. I was reading that scene alone at home and I must tell you, when those actors took their masks off I had this chill go down my spine. It was like a scene in a horror movie where a bunch of idiot carousers are making a big mistake and don't even know it. The Father/Son theme is usually about reconciliation but it is also about revenge. The son is supposed to avenge the father's murder. Remember Hamlet? If you start putting two and two together, a story is emerging here using all the information that we know but giving it a very different meaning. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
freya9	32. RE: "Wolf Hall" Reading and Discussion Feb 1 2012, 2:50 PM EST \| Post edited: Feb 1 2012, 2:50 PM EST There is also a part before Wolsey dies when Cromwell takes some of the young men of his household out and they see a similiar play. Although Cromwell tells someone off about it he later has to admit that parts were amusing. I think this comes at a stage before the Cardinal is in real trouble, when they are still optimistic. What happens to Wolsey changes Cromwell's slight acceptance of the matter. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
HeverRose	33. RE: "Wolf Hall" Reading and Discussion Feb 2 2012, 11:15 AM EST I find it fascinating that Anne is described ( from Cromwell's viewpoint) as so very tiny. It is mentioned more than once. What do you make of that? Post reply Do you find this valuable?
freya9	34. RE: "Wolf Hall" Reading and Discussion Feb 2 2012, 2:34 PM EST \| Post edited: Feb 2 2012, 2:34 PM EST I think that Cromwell's opinion of Anne in all things is coloured by her attitude to Wolsey. Perhaps if Anne had been a supporter of the Cardinal he might have found her petite rather than tiny. Having said that he describes Catherine of Aragon, whom he admires, as being 'as wide as she is tall'. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
HeverRose	35. RE: "Wolf Hall" Reading and Discussion Feb 4 2012, 12:44 PM EST \| Post edited: Feb 4 2012, 2:18 PM EST Go Ahead...Make My Day!! After Wolsey's death Cromwell starts to lose the sympathetic edge he has in the first part of the novel. While he is serving the Cardinal, it is hard to find anything wrong with him: he is the perfect employee, a great "son,' a wonderful husband and father, caring to children, like Rafe and this nieces and nephew. Animals love him. The only thing the reader hears is that he has a "bad reputation" from several characters, but it is uncertain what exactly that means. We don't see him doing anythng bad. But after Wolsey's death, and with his entry into the King's confidence, there emerges a change, little by little. He starts to make sarcastic and degrading comments to people, he starts to throw his weight around, he starts to be a bully. I don't have the text in front of me but RIchard, his nephew, tells him that being "persuaded" by him is like being kicked and stomped on in the street. So what is his motivation for this change? Is the "real" Cromwell coming out? Is it a cocky assurance that he is really more competent and smarter than everyone else? is it a surge of arrogance due to his rise in power? He is certainly an a revenge track. He takes great pleasure in degrading Henry Percy because he remembers him coming to arrest Wolsey. But the thing is Percy was wrong and Cromwell, as the King's messenger was right in this particular situation, which complicate things even more. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
freya9	36. RE: "Wolf Hall" Reading and Discussion Feb 4 2012, 2:42 PM EST \| Post edited: Feb 4 2012, 2:42 PM EST Perhaps he had to become harder as he came more involoved with the Court. He was after all surrounded by people who thought they were superior to him simply because of their background. Hardly something that would endear them to him. The court was full of ruthless, proud people. People putting on a show to solidify their position. Since Cromwell couldn't big up his family name/blood he had to use another tactic. There is a part of the book where someone tells him that a man cried out when his heart was removed and he replies that once the heart is removed the man couldn't have spoken. When asked if that he knows that from experience he remains silent hoping that the story will get about that Cromwell once removed a man's heart. Thus making him appear fierce. I have read that although Cromwell could be ruthless he was only so when neccesary. As a family man with a reasonably succesful Law buisness he really had little reason to be ruthless. At other stages in his life such as his time as a solider he would not have had that luxury. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
HeverRose	37. RE: "Wolf Hall" Reading and Discussion Feb 4 2012, 3:42 PM EST \| Post edited: Feb 4 2012, 3:42 PM EST The Henry Percy scene is a good example of being ruthless only when necessary. Percy had it coming there. You don't make trouble for the King like that if you have any brains, as Cromwell duly points out. It is a great scene. The other thing is that Cromwell is such an anomaly ( nobody knows what to make of him) that he can invent himself. I think he is constantly testing the waters to see what effect he has. An interesting comparison is Cromwell and the Duke of Norfolk as the two main strong arm men on this stage. Norfolk has zero charisma or chivalry or kindness. He is just a brute., even though he, as a nobleman and courtier, should have the better manners. Cromwell, though "low born" is much more civilized. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
freya9	38. RE: "Wolf Hall" Reading and Discussion Feb 5 2012, 5:50 AM EST \| Post edited: Feb 5 2012, 5:50 AM EST Even though Cromwell enjoyed putting Percy in his place he was in a way doing him a favour. Percy seems to have not realised the consequences of what he was doing or the danger he was putting himself in. Even if he had not had a grduge against him he would have had to be rough with Percy to get it through to him the seriousness of the situaltion. As for Norfolk he probably considered himself so high up that he didn't need to show any courtesy to anyone apart from the King. He seems typical of a lot of the nobility throughout history. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
HeverRose	39. RE: "Wolf Hall" Reading and Discussion Feb 6 2012, 11:52 AM EST Did Percy actually make such a claim right before the King's marriage? Such a thing would be documented, I would think, but I have never heard of it. As far as I remember, the next time we see Percy after he is shipped off up North to marry Mary Talbot, is at Anne's trial where he appears sick and broken. Post reply Do you find this valuable?

Previous | 1 2 3 4 5 | Next > Last

JavaScript must be enabled in order for you to contribute to this site.
To start contributing, enable JavaScript by changing your browser options, then try again.

Home