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HeverRose |
"Wolf Hall" Reading and Discussion
Jan 15 2012, 6:25 PM EST
| Post edited: Jan 15 2012, 7:17 PM EST
Many of us have read Hilary Mantel's novel "Wolf Hall." Many of us would like to read it but perhaps have not had the chance or the time, and some of us are ambivalent about reading it. Whatever the case, this thread is meant to be a place to discuss the novel in detail and also to discuss some of the representations of Tudor life and characters that Mantel offers us.The novel is controversial, due to both its writing style and its presentation of Thomas Cromwell in a sympathetic light. The sequel to Wolf Hall is due to come out in May of this year, so this is a good time to read it if that is something that you have wanted to do. I think a controversial work is a very exciting thing to discuss and I hope that this thread will be lively and entertaining to us all, no matter what your opinion of the novel is. . You may find it brilliant or you may find it frustrating. It is OK to like it or not like it. If you really hate it you will probably stop reading, but if it keeps your interest enough to make valid points then that is welcomed. I am looking for other people's insights to this novel and to share my own. I am also hoping to be able to discuss the text in detail because I think it is an important contemporary piece of fiction about a subject we are all fascinated by: the Court of King Henry VIII. We know the characters, we know the age, we know the story. So let's lend our minds to this book as well as allow the book to show us something. Let's engage with it as Tudor enthusiasts and see where it takes us. 1 out of 6 found this valuable. Do you?
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HeverRose |
1. RE: "Wolf Hall" Reading and Discussion
Jan 15 2012, 6:37 PM EST
Unless anyone has any objection, I say we make this an informal discussion, moving along at the pace people are comfortable with. Read Chapter One sometime in the next few weeks and just join in as you please.I just finished Chapter One so I will throw out a few things . Respond at your leisure just like any other thread. 1 out of 5 found this valuable. Do you? |
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HeverRose |
2. RE: "Wolf Hall" Reading and Discussion
Jan 15 2012, 6:51 PM EST
This is probably the most dramatic start to a story I have ever read. The first time I read it it turned my stomach and I had to skip over it. I steeled myself to reread it and I am glad I did. I focused on the language rather than the horrific image of a father brutally beating his son. The primary purpose here, is to gain the reader's sympathy for Thomas Cromwell. In addition to showing him as a victim of horrible child abuse ( did they even have the notion of child abuse in the 16 th century?) I noted about 10 different comments regarding young Thomas's character that make you like him and admire him. See if you can find them. They are scattered through out the first chapter. Are these qualities realistic? I mean, do you believe a fifteen year old boy to have such qualities? 1 out of 4 found this valuable. Do you? |
LadyTudorsFan |
3. RE: "Wolf Hall" Reading and Discussion
Jan 17 2012, 5:07 PM EST
His response to being beaten up by Walter, his dad: " I've had enough of this. If he gets after me again I'm going to kill him and if I kill him they'll hang me and if they're going to hang me I want a better reason." Shows that at that young age, he was very mature and beyond his years.
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HeverRose |
4. RE: "Wolf Hall" Reading and Discussion
Jan 17 2012, 8:15 PM EST
| Post edited: Jan 17 2012, 8:43 PM EST
I like the part about "I want a better reason" LOLHere are some of the ones I came up with: The very first thought that Cromwell has that the reader is given is in the 4th paragraph, when his father is beating him. He thinks he is going to die and he thinks. "I'll miss my dog,." So here is this kid, getting the crap beaten out of him, and he thinks of his dog, and that if he dies, he will miss her. Do you think the real Cromwell was the type of person who would miss his dog? It is the very first thing that is told to us about the character Cromwell, so it is important. Some historian said about Cromwell that he was the most unsentimental person who ever lived. Well, Mantel establishes him as a very sentimental person right away. Some others: He does not want to get blood on his sister's dress. He offers to pay back his brother in law. He picks up the Welsh language by osmosis. He lends a helping hand to people when he makes his way down the river. He endears himself to the foreigners he meets and they invite him to stay with them. He is good at telling stories. All these qualities, presented in the first chapter, establish him as a person you LIKE. Do you think this is the way that Cromwell really managed to rise and become as successful as he did? Do you find this valuable? |
CrimsonPetal |
5. RE: "Wolf Hall" Reading and Discussion
Jan 18 2012, 8:48 AM EST
I must say, I loved this novel. I read it a couple of months ago, so I might have to refresh my memory on a few things. Despite the confusing way in which everyone is called Thomas, and so you have to work out who's saying what, I really enjoyed seeing Cromwell in a different light.In response to your last post, no, I don't think he was really like that, or the hard life he endured, such as his fathers' beatings and fighting in wars, hammered all the sentimental feelings out of him. He is seen by many as a genuinely kind person in this novel, such as his son and his ward, is it? It's interesting to see that perhaps, in his personal life, he was this warm, loving person, devoted to his wife and children, heartbroken when he lost his wife and daughters to illness. All we see generally is his cunning, almost selfish way of maneuvering through Henry's court and gaining wealth and respect. Personally, I think it's difficult to judge a person on what they did in order to keep good faith with Henry and not let their enemies find a way to bring them down. Obviously for some, thinking of Cromwell, his actions during Anne Boleyn's downfall is the first thing to come to mind; for me, it's his torture of Mark Smeaton. But it's possible that, before all his adventures and promotions, he was sentimental about things. Is it not mentioned in this novel that he also had a photographic memory? That really interested me. Very good novel to discuss! I'm sure there will be many different opinions and ideas - I, too, had to reread the first part where he was being beaten by his father, as it's quite a harrowing description, but, like you said, it definitely opens the readers' mind straight away to feeling sympathy for Cromwell. Excited for the sequel! 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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HeverRose |
6. RE: "Wolf Hall" Reading and Discussion
Jan 18 2012, 12:28 PM EST
| Post edited: Jan 18 2012, 12:33 PM EST
Certainly the most fascinating element of the novel is to see how Mantel will account for or reconcile the "sympathetic" Cromwell with the actions he was involved in, such as the dissolution of the monasteries and the downfall of Anne Boleyn. Stylistic observations: I want to point out two: As LadyTudorsFan pointed out in the quote she gave above, the book is very droll. There is a dry sense of humour built into the way the characters perceive the world around them. There is an ironic perspective going on which I don't yet know the purpose of. Secondly, I reread the first chapter again. ( The novel holds up well to close analysis, like a Vermeer or Breughel painting. The closer you look the more you see) There are no adjectives used to describe the young Thomas. Everything we learn about him is shown to us, rather than told. We get his thoughts, words and actions. So it is very much like meeting a person in real life ( except for the thoughts) and the reader is called upon to access the person on their own. Do you find this valuable? |
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HeverRose |
7. RE: "Wolf Hall" Reading and Discussion
Jan 18 2012, 12:59 PM EST
| Post edited: Jan 18 2012, 1:27 PM EST
By the way, one can say "reread again" if you "reread" something more than once LOL
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CrimsonPetal |
8. RE: "Wolf Hall" Reading and Discussion
Jan 18 2012, 2:41 PM EST
I think I'd have to "reread again" in order to spot things like that :P but as a novel it's a strange one. You make a good point about that - I wonder if the sequel will be from Cromwell's point of view again. I'm another one of those who read everything and anything about Anne Boleyn, in order to gain insight from every perspective (although I must say, I'm a supporter!). To see Cromwell's involvement from his own perspective will definitely be interesting - I wonder if his family will still see him as this kind, loving person. On the famously incorrect Tudors, isn't his son Gregory present at his beheading? Either way, it will make for a very interesting read.This novel also showed Wolsey in a much different light. He's a character where the more I read about him, the less sure I am of him, if that makes sense. Cromwell clearly has a good, deep relationship with Wolsey in Wolf Hall, so it's surprising how easily he took up Wolseys' role at court. But I'm getting ahead of myself here. I studied English Literature at A Level, but no way am I a talented critic, so my opinions may not impress many of you - but I do love to read. Do you find this valuable? |
freya9 |
9. RE: "Wolf Hall" Reading and Discussion
Jan 18 2012, 3:16 PM EST
"Some others:I am not sure these things make him a sentimental person. Probably he didn't want to get blood on her dress as they were not a rich family & couldn't afford to spoil the clothes they had. It had likely been drummed into him so much that it was second nature. Offering to pay back money and actually doing it are often not the same thing. Apparently Cromwell could speak basic Welsh although how he learned it is not known. I thought that he was doing this in the hope that someone would give him a few coins or some sort of paid work. Again his charm has a motive although that wouldn't rule out the fact he liked the foreigners. Earlier in the book we discover that he has the 'gift of the gab'. His storytelling abilities may have stemmed from that. The dog seems to be Cromwell's way of having something that isn't grim in his life. His father beats him and his sisters despite their affection are grown with families of their own but he has his dog. It's quite sad that nothing else jumps into his mind that he will miss. In another part of the book he is shown calming the horses whilst his father shoes them. He tells them of how their mothers still think of them and that Walter will be over soon. Which is really about his lack of a mother and desire to escape his father. Do you find this valuable? |
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HeverRose |
10. RE: "Wolf Hall" Reading and Discussion
Jan 18 2012, 3:41 PM EST
| Post edited: Jan 18 2012, 3:50 PM EST
freya, my mistake..I did not mean they all point to sentimentality.They also point to being considerate, having integrity, being sharp and clever, being helpful, connecting with people.. If you were to meet a person and they exhibited such qualities, you would basically like him and think well of him. My point was these were the ways that Mantel starts to establish a "good feeling" about Cromwell from the beginning. The only thing about the dog is that in an age where there was so much cruelty to weaker beings ( children, imprisoned people, women ..legally that is ) and where such animal torture like bear bating existed for fun, the love for his dog does stand out. And yes, the horse reference is also an example. So the point is that Cromwell had a way with animals and respected/loved them. We understand that today in our culture but I am not sure if it was the way people were back then. Do you find this valuable? |
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HeverRose |
11. RE: "Wolf Hall" Reading and Discussion
Jan 18 2012, 3:45 PM EST
CrimsonPetal: I LOVE his rapport with Wolsey, and I was thinking of that dialogue that is coming up in Chapter Two as to the dry sense of humour. Yes, it will be very interesting to see how all is handled in the sequel. That is why I started this thread. Now is a great time to read ( or reread) the novel. When the sequel comes out it will be like meeting an old friend. Do you find this valuable? |
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HeverRose |
12. RE: "Wolf Hall" Reading and Discussion
Jan 20 2012, 12:34 PM EST
| Post edited: Jan 20 2012, 2:22 PM EST
A Woman's CromwellWomen love powerful men, but they don't like some of the qualities that go into becoming powerful: ruthlessness, insensitivity, working too many hours, not being in touch with feelings, etc. It is often the case that when women create male characters ( in fantasy or in movies or in books), they bestow upon them attributes that women like and wish men had more of. So their version of a powerful man would be someone who is successful, brings home a lot of bacon AND is a good hubby and daddy.. I think Hilary Mantel's Cromwell is a woman's man ( which is not the same thing as a ladies' man LOL). He has many of the qualities that appeal to women. I personally don't think that a woman can "write" a male character to whom she feels a connection WITHOUT making him appealing in such a way. If a man wrote this book, the character "Cromwell" would be very different. . Do you find this valuable? |
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CrimsonPetal |
13. RE: "Wolf Hall" Reading and Discussion
Jan 20 2012, 2:29 PM EST
That's such a good analysis, there's definitely some truth in that! Combined with his horrible upbringing, and consequently the sympathy we feel for Cromwell in his early years, it almost makes us happy when he triumphs in something, forgetting what we know (or, in some cases, think we know) about him from other sources.The loving relationships he has with his family, for me, created a connection with Cromwell - not only did it make me like him, but strangely enough, it enabled me to relate to him slightly. It made me think that, despite the way your parents treated you, and the way in which you were brought up, you can change everything for the better, and forge your own relationships in later life without the bitterness, or perhaps repeat, of your past. Do you find this valuable? |
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freya9 |
14. RE: "Wolf Hall" Reading and Discussion
Jan 20 2012, 3:41 PM EST
I was reading a biography of Cromwell and it said that women often approached him with requests because he was thought likely to help them. I wonder what effect it had on Cromwell losing his mother at such a young age. I have noticed that people who have had unhappy childhoods are often very keen create the happy family enviroment that they never had. Perhaps this was the case with Cromwell. There is a part in chapter 1 when the foriegners comment on how cruelly the English treat their children and he thinks 'there are places were people are not cruel to their children' ?
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HeverRose |
15. RE: "Wolf Hall" Reading and Discussion
Jan 20 2012, 5:35 PM EST
| Post edited: Jan 20 2012, 5:36 PM EST
Maybe, freya. But people are also pattern oriented. They perpetuate what they know and are used to. Most of the time, I think. When the foreigners make the comment about the English at the end of Chapter One, Cromwell has an epiphany . He beomes that rare person who, in a moment of great insight, which comes upon him almost like a lightening bolt, can imagine another way, another life, something other than what he knows. I think that is where Mantel sets him up as a man of vision, which is what he is. CrimsonPetal, I totally agree that we connect with Cromwell. Most of the time it is difficult to connect with characters from that long ago, either in movies or in books. They were so different; it is almost like a parallel universe !! So Cromwell is either an anachronism i.e. a "modern" person in athe 16th century or something else, I don't know what. What exactly IS he is a good question to try and answer. Do you find this valuable? |
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HeverRose |
16. RE: "Wolf Hall" Reading and Discussion
Jan 20 2012, 5:43 PM EST
freya, what do we know about when the real Cromwell lost his mother? Do you know?
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freya9 |
17. RE: "Wolf Hall" Reading and Discussion
Jan 21 2012, 9:38 AM EST
From what I have read she is believed to have died when he was quite young. There seems to be some doubt as to whether Walter was his biological father as he was his mother's 2nd husband. Walter may have been a step-father whose surname he adopted on his mother's marriage. I agree that it is hard for a modern writer, even when an expert in the period, to imagine what a historical person was really like. There has been an ongoing argument amongst historians about the emotions of our ancestors. For a long time it was taken as fact that up until the Victorian age people didn't love their children as much. The reasoning being that since child mortality was so high parents couldn't afford to get attached to them. However there is also evidence in the form of letters, tombs, wills etc that suggests otherwise. (Catherine Parr wrote one of her ladies a letter in which she criticized her for the extreme grief she displayed on the death of her infant son). One modern touch in the book that I did find a little out of place was a reference to the little dog Bella having eyes like 'alien moons'. The Tudors had a concept of the universe of course but it just didn't sit right as something that would occur to Cromwell.
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HeverRose |
18. RE: "Wolf Hall" Reading and Discussion
Jan 28 2012, 12:49 PM EST
Perched on Cromwell's shoulderThe complaint that some people have put forward regarding Wolf Hall is the ambiguous pronoun "he." I have been rereading the novel with a fine tooth comb and here are some conclusions: !. They all refer to Cromwell. 2. Any "he" that does not refer to Cromwell will be made evident that it doesn't.. It comes down to perspective and the relationship between the book and the reader. In the classic "omniscient author:" narrative, the reader is told the story and is basically invited to sit back and relax while the story is being told. Jane Austen would be a prime example of this kind of storytelling. Or, in the classic first person narrative, the reader can be asked to take the point of view of the protagonist, as with Pip in Great Expectations. Or the reader can be made to float through several consiousnesses, as in Virgina Woolf's To the Lighthouse. " ( I am picking authors and books that people probably are familiar with) The perspective in Wolf Hall is none of these. The position of the reader is not exactly aligned with Cromwell as it is in a first person narrative ( he is not telling his own story) but rather perched on Cromwell's shoulder, or as his shadow, following him around. There is no scene in which Cromwell is not in. The reader does get to know what Cromwell is thinking, but more as if he had the ability to mind read.. The reader thereby observes BOTH Cromwell AND the rest of the scene, but from a much more intimate, almost magcial point of view. Once you as the reader accept your position in the book then all becomes clear. . Do you find this valuable? |
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freya9 |
19. RE: "Wolf Hall" Reading and Discussion
Jan 28 2012, 1:28 PM EST
Something else to consider is that just because Cromwell thinks something does not mean that we have to agree with him. For instance we see that he has a negative opinion of Anne Boleyn but this is through the filter of what Cromwell sees as her persecution of Wolsey. A book from Anne's point of view would show why she was suspious of Wolsey's behaviour. He also seems to like Jane Seymour but there are also hints in the book that Jane is not as sweet as she appears.
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