Location: The Tudors vs. The Other Boleyn Girl

Discussion: Philippa Gregory's "convincing lie" exposedReported This is a featured thread

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MsSquirrly
MsSquirrly
Philippa Gregory's "convincing lie" exposed
Dec 19 2011, 10:20 AM EST | Post edited: Dec 19 2011, 10:20 AM EST
Just wanted to point you all in the direction of Susan Bordo's blog. She has posted an excerpt of her new book "The Creation of Anne Boleyn" which will be published next year.

http://thecreationofanneboleyn.wordpress.com/2011/12/19/fact-fiction-and-philippa-gregory/
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HeverRose
HeverRose
1. RE: Philippa Gregory's "convincing lie" exposed
Dec 19 2011, 12:24 PM EST | Post edited: Dec 19 2011, 12:27 PM EST
Thank you MsSquirrly. Susan's blog is also very nice so thank you, too for pointing us in that direction.


All I can say about all that is:

1. It's a free country ( whatever country PG publishes in) and so we can't really do much about it. I suppose it is better to have freedom of speech than it is to have regulated speech, even by Historians with a capital H)

2. Because of the proliferation of knowledge in today's world, at least there are other people around who take it upon themselves to clarify and to separate truth from fiction.

3. Controversy such as this at least keeps the topic current and alive

4. People who really care about a subject, ( as in this case, Anne Boleyn) will know what's what..Remember that The Tudors ( the show we all love and dedicate a wiki to) is appallingly innacurate in some things and I don't really see anybody here believing any of it.
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MsSquirrly
MsSquirrly
2. RE: Philippa Gregory's "convincing lie" exposed
Dec 19 2011, 12:54 PM EST | Post edited: Dec 19 2011, 12:54 PM EST
Some people will say, compared to "the other Boleyn girl", "The Tudors" looks like a documentary lol. Of course, they both have inaccuracies however, the reason people have a beef with PG is that she maintains she is historically accurate and merely 'piecing' the facts with fiction.

Some people do think that her books are historically accurate....there is no doubt. You might find the following blog that a teacher wrote about Elizabeth I after watching "Anonymous" interesting.

http://www.areawidenews.com/blogs/imnotcrazy/entry/45255/
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royalfalcon
royalfalcon
3. RE: Philippa Gregory's "convincing lie" exposed
Dec 19 2011, 1:17 PM EST | Post edited: Dec 19 2011, 1:17 PM EST
The big difference to me between Philippa Gregory's books and The Tudors is that Michael Hirst makes no claim that the programme is historically totally correct. .Philippa Gregory implies, as MsSquirrly has just said that her books are historically accurate. Speaking personally, I would say The Tudors is in a different class to The Other Boleyn Girl. LOL I know that I am biased! 1  out of 1 found this valuable. Do you?    
HeverRose
HeverRose
4. RE: Philippa Gregory's "convincing lie" exposed
Dec 19 2011, 2:24 PM EST | Post edited: Dec 19 2011, 2:24 PM EST
I looked at her site and the only thing I saw on this topic of fact vs fiction is:

"By and large the fiction fills in the gaps of the known historical record and brings it to life."

That is just a very general statement.

She is basically a novelist who is also interested in history and gets inspiration from it and then runs with it in her own way. There is obviously a market for it out there, namely low to mid brow devourers of atmospheric novels. At the risk of sounding snobbish, I have to say I don't really care what these people think. Let them eat Tudor cake!!

For just about everything in our consumer culture, there will always be a "pop" version and a more serious, true and meaningful version, whether it be in art, music, history, television, fiction or whatever.
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HeverRose
HeverRose
5. RE: Philippa Gregory's "convincing lie" exposed
Dec 19 2011, 2:47 PM EST | Post edited: Dec 19 2011, 2:47 PM EST
Had a look at the blog ( you are keeping me from work!!!!)

This person seems to be some crazy chick with some kind of weird agenda.

The comments tearing her post to shreds also shows that people don't really get a way with writing silly rot.
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MsSquirrly
MsSquirrly
6. RE: Philippa Gregory's "convincing lie" exposed
Dec 19 2011, 3:31 PM EST | Post edited: Dec 19 2011, 3:31 PM EST
"I looked at her site and the only thing I saw on this topic of fact vs fiction is:

"By and large the fiction fills in the gaps of the known historical record and brings it to life."

That is just a very general statement.

She is basically a novelist who is also interested in history and gets inspiration from it and then runs with it in her own way. There is obviously a market for it out there, namely low to mid brow devourers of atmospheric novels. At the risk of sounding snobbish, I have to say I don't really care what these people think. Let them eat Tudor cake!!

For just about everything in our consumer culture, there will always be a "pop" version and a more serious, true and meaningful version, whether it be in art, music, history, television, fiction or whatever.
"
Well Susan Bordo quoted what she said:

“Because I am a trained historian,” she wrote in 2008 (in fact, her degree is in 18th century literature), “I described the story of the Boleyn girls in the full context of the dramatic political, religious and social changes of the time. Without realizing it, in so doing I invented a new way of writing the historical novel in which the ‘history’ part of the equation is just as important as the ‘novel’ part. The fact plays as great a part in the story as the fiction, and when there is a choice of fact or fiction, I always choose the factual version. The only time that I create events for my real-life characters is to join up one factual event and another, to fill in the gaps of their story.”

The last statement is the convincing lie..... The other Boleyn girl is more fiction than fact. It would be fine if she said that...but its not what she says.
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HeverRose
HeverRose
7. RE: Philippa Gregory's "convincing lie" exposed
Dec 19 2011, 5:07 PM EST | Post edited: Dec 19 2011, 5:07 PM EST
She does seem full of herself. The "I invented..." bit is laughable. Jean Plaidy among others wrote great historical novels decades ago and managed the combination of history and fiction extremely well.

As I said earlier, it is good that people respond, either with books of their own or with articles and reviews.
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AJBates
AJBates
8. RE: Philippa Gregory's "convincing lie" exposed
Dec 20 2011, 11:29 AM EST | Post edited: Dec 20 2011, 11:29 AM EST
You know with all this Gregory hate I find it funny that she has realitively recently published a nonfiction book (or something not sure if it was just a paper instead of a full book) with a few other writers on the war of the roses. But then her war of the roses books weren't as outlandish as the other boyeln girl was though, and realitvely historicaly correct. (And the last one though it is Elizabeth's Woodville's mother had almost non of the magic nonsense that was on every page of the White Queen). Do you find this valuable?    
HeverRose
HeverRose
9. RE: Philippa Gregory's "convincing lie" exposed
Dec 20 2011, 1:26 PM EST | Post edited: Dec 20 2011, 1:26 PM EST
I read about that too. Everyone will be on that book like a chicken on a june bug. Do you find this valuable?    
juliana-angela
juliana-angela
10. RE: Philippa Gregory's "convincing lie" exposed
Dec 20 2011, 6:06 PM EST | Post edited: Dec 20 2011, 6:06 PM EST
"But then her war of the roses books weren't as outlandish as the other boyeln girl was though, and realitvely historicaly correct. (And the last one though it is Elizabeth's Woodville's mother had almost non of the magic nonsense that was on every page of the White Queen)."
I don't know about that - it gets very dodgy historically in 'The White Queen' after the death of Edward IV.

Wihout putting in spoilers for those who still want to read the book, she has some rather strange ideas about the fate of the Princes in the Tower...
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AJBates
AJBates
11. RE: Philippa Gregory's "convincing lie" exposed
Dec 21 2011, 9:21 AM EST | Post edited: Dec 21 2011, 9:21 AM EST
The last book is far better. But I don't think you can really call it historically dodgy since though I don't believe it, but since they don't have the bodies yet you can't really prove what happened to them, and I also don't believe we have the other guys either so it's not like there can be dna testing for conclusive proof which is pretty much the only way to really prove anything. Do you find this valuable?    
MsSquirrly
MsSquirrly
12. RE: Philippa Gregory's "convincing lie" exposed
Dec 21 2011, 10:49 AM EST | Post edited: Dec 21 2011, 10:49 AM EST
"You know with all this Gregory hate I find it funny that she has realitively recently published a nonfiction book (or something not sure if it was just a paper instead of a full book) with a few other writers on the war of the roses. But then her war of the roses books weren't as outlandish as the other boyeln girl was though, and realitvely historicaly correct. (And the last one though it is Elizabeth's Woodville's mother had almost non of the magic nonsense that was on every page of the White Queen)."
Yes its called "The Women of the Cousins' war" along with two other writers who are barely mentioned by PG herself. Here is her talking about the book:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRKdJp8Zx-o&feature=player_embedded

I gave up reading historical fiction so it would be something I might find interesting. I am just hesitant because she made such a dogs breakfast of the Boleyn sisters story. It looks like she is a sloppy researcher.
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juliana-angela
juliana-angela
13. RE: Philippa Gregory's "convincing lie" exposed
Dec 21 2011, 2:04 PM EST | Post edited: Dec 21 2011, 2:06 PM EST
"The last book is far better. But I don't think you can really call it historically dodgy since though I don't believe it, but since they don't have the bodies yet you can't really prove what happened to them, and I also don't believe we have the other guys either so it's not like there can be dna testing for conclusive proof which is pretty much the only way to really prove anything."
I don't think that there is much to choose between TOBG and TWQ when it comes to historical accuracy.

There aren't actually that many outright inventions in TOBG but there are a lot of things that most historians would consider very unlikely, such as the incest between Anne and George and the deformity of Anne's miscarried child. But we can't say for certain that they didn't happen. Ms. Gregory's interpretation of the fate of the princes is in the same category - very unlikely, but not impossible.

TOBG probably attracts more criticism because there are so many Anne Boleyn fans who don't like the way that she is portrayed in the book. But the main problem, as previous posters have said, is Ms.Gregory's promotion of her books as something other than historical fiction and her assumption of superiority over other novelists.
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AJBates
AJBates
14. RE: Philippa Gregory's "convincing lie" exposed
Dec 21 2011, 9:37 PM EST | Post edited: Dec 21 2011, 9:37 PM EST
agree with you 100%. I think if any other author wrote the similar things, which many do, no one will have an issue with it because they admit some parts are fabricated. The problem is she says hers should be taken for truth.

I normally enjoy authors notes in books, because it says what they were thinking and why they fabricated which things (or in some cases built upon one theory that hasn't been proven or disproven yet), but in her books I can't stand to look at them.
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