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Discussion: George's sexual orientation
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MarinadeChampagne |
George's sexual orientation
Nov 1 2011, 7:27 AM EDT
For the little I know about Georgre Boleyn, there is a clear opposition. Some say he was a womanizer, others say he was gay. Hirst showed us those two sides of George but then, I can't help but wondering. Gay? Heterosexual? Bi?
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Reggie19 |
1. RE: George's sexual orientation
Nov 1 2011, 2:19 PM EDT
| Post edited: Nov 1 2011, 2:20 PM EDT
Aside from Retha Warnicke's assertions (she also seems to believe that all the men convicted of adultery alongside Anne Boleyn were gay, and that Thomas Wyatt was exempted because he wasn't), there is nothing to prove that George Boleyn was homosexual. Most historians have written George Boleyn as something of a womanizer, and more reliable historians at that, and as well as taking the time period into consideration, where religion was the center of a lot of these people's lives, it seems very unlikely he was anything other than heterosexual. S0d0my was a criminal offense around this time, and gossip often spread like wildfire throughout the court. I'm sure if there was anything to implicate George as being homosexual, other historians besides Warnicke (a sensationalist, to put it mildly) would have documented the evidence.
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MarinadeChampagne |
2. RE: George's sexual orientation
Nov 1 2011, 4:20 PM EDT
Thank you for your reply.
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MsSquirrly |
3. RE: George's sexual orientation
Nov 2 2011, 11:40 AM EDT
As Reggie said, the one historian who started all this speculation about George Boleyn's sexuality is Retha Warnicke. What does she base this on? Well the fact that George shared a book with Mark Smeaton...which he also shared with Thomas Wyatt who no one has ever said, was homosexual. The other thing that is often used is Cavendish's metrical verses where he talks about George and "unlawful lechery"....however, he also used that to describe Henry himself. She just takes really huge leaps in her speculation.You can read the "evidence" she uses at the bottom of this page : http://www.thetudorswiki.com/page/George+Boleyn+-+Historical+Profile 3 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you? |
theanneboleynfiles |
4. RE: George's sexual orientation
Nov 26 2011, 11:21 AM EST
Unfortunately Retha Warnicke's view of George, and the other men executed in the coup against the Boleyns has become a popular view of George because of Philippa Gregory's "The Other Boleyn Girl" (Gregory used Warnicke as her main source) and Alison Weir's work. Many people just take it as fact that George was gay or bi when actually there is no evidence at all. As MsSquirrly points out George Cavendish's words "unlawful lechery" were also used to describe Henry VIII and the word "bestial" was used to describe both George and Thomas Culpeper. So, if we believe that Cavendish's words about George mean that George was gay then we need to assume that Henry VIII and Thomas Culpeper were also gay and that makes no sense.
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freya9 |
5. RE: George's sexual orientation
Nov 28 2011, 10:17 AM EST
| Post edited: Nov 28 2011, 10:19 AM EST
Retha certainly seems to have a vivid imagination. It seems she might have been better suited to writing bodice rippers than history.
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Aura847 |
6. RE: <font><font>la orientación sexual de George</font></font>
Jan 5 2012, 12:08 PM EST
O sea forma de ver cosas podria considerar a George Bolena, como a Cesar Borgia, un hombre mujeriego, mayoria hombres mujeriegos, no son gays, cambian de pareja continuamente, puede maquinacion entendamos luego venganza preparo su esposa, cual hizo Katharine Howload.Lo siento escribire todos mis comentarios en Español. Paz y amor Dios os bendiga 0 out of 6 found this valuable. Do you? |
howardfan |
7. RE: <font><font>la orientación sexual de George</font></font>
Feb 25 2012, 7:00 PM EST
Its sad that many people automatically assume george boleyn was gay based on Warnicke's view which was translated by Philippa Gregory as "fact" in her Other boleyn girl book. I do not see why Michael Hirst chose to go with the view of Warnicke in his portrayal of george either.Gregory referred to the men surrounding anne boleyn as a homosexual ring, when there is no proof that any of them were 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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theanneboleynfiles |
8. RE: <font><font>la orientación sexual de George</font></font>
Feb 26 2012, 5:47 AM EST
What's annoying is that Retha Warnicke's suggestion was used by Philippa Gregory and then it has been repeated and repeated by other authors. It just goes on and on and has really seeped into popular culture. Most people now assume that George was gay and don't even question it, just as they assume that he had an unhappy marriage with Jane and that she was a spiteful, jealous busybody.
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freya9 |
9. RE: <font><font>la orientación sexual de George</font></font>
Feb 29 2012, 8:32 AM EST
I think the only reason they had a gay relationship between George and Smeaton in the series was to add variety. I think the scene where Joan Bulmer hints that she had a lesbian experience with Katherine Howard was for the same reason.
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theanneboleynfiles |
10. RE: <font><font>la orientación sexual de George</font></font>
Feb 29 2012, 9:30 AM EST
But it's not just in "The Tudors", it's in the factual work of Weir an Warnicke, and in lots of fiction. I hate the way it's presented as fact in some history books.
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howardfan |
12. RE: <font><font>la orientación sexual de George</font></font>
Mar 2 2012, 12:42 AM EST
"I think the only reason they had a gay relationship between George and Smeaton in the series was to add variety. I think the scene where Joan Bulmer hints that she had a lesbian experience with Katherine Howard was for the same reason."yes very true, they wanted to add a bit spice and controversy to the show. I mean were thomas tallis and will compton lovers??? LOL but it added a bit of lustful sub plot that drew in the viewers attention. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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MarinadeChampagne |
13. RE: <font><font>la orientación sexual de George</font></font>
Mar 2 2012, 6:16 AM EST
Thanks for all of your replys, it is very educational and very interesting.
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howardfan |
14. RE: <font><font>la orientación sexual de George</font></font>
Mar 9 2012, 6:11 PM EST
oh may I also add how irritating phillipa gregory's insinuation that anne and george DID commit incest in order to give the king a male heir, that was just offensive and completely fabricated however she is not a tudor historian but what is sad is that many people who do not know of actual historians accounts such as Starkey and ives etc read Greggory's book and take it as fact. I have a few friends who love "The other boleyn girl" and think that anne and george were not only vile creatures capable of witchcraft but that george was attracted to anne in a sexual way and he was also gay. The deformed baby as a result of the "incest" is also rumor to add to the suspected copulation between a brother and sister
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freya9 |
15. RE: <font><font>la orientación sexual de George</font></font>
Mar 14 2012, 9:30 AM EDT
| Post edited: Mar 18 2012, 12:22 PM EDT
I think that apart from anything else the idea that if George was gay then he must be up for incest with his sister to be very homophobic. Another example of this is the way he was shown raping Jane in The Tudors. It just seems to be promoting the old sterotype of gay men as women haters. On the subject of Gregory how on earth has this woman become regarded as any sort of expert on Tudor history ? I have seen her on several documentaries discussing her half baked theories as if they were fact. The makers of the programmes must be under the delusion that simply having a degree makes you an expert even if it is in something totally unrelated to the subject matter.
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howardfan |
16. RE: <font><font>la orientación sexual de George</font></font>
Mar 17 2012, 11:23 PM EDT
yes true freya9, gregory calls herself an historian when she is not, she does have a degree in 18th century literature I believe but thats all and yes it does seem homophobic to think that being gay means you are into all types of horrible sexual practices including incest. Also there is no evidence to suggest that jane boleyn was unhappy with george atleast in the early days
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freya9 |
17. RE: <font><font>la orientación sexual de George</font></font>
Mar 18 2012, 12:31 PM EDT
That's a good point. I think the assumption that Jane and George had an unhappy marriage comes from the belief that it was Jane who claimed that George and Anne committed incest. So a reason must be found as to why she did so. But it is almost certain that it was another lady who made the incest allegation. There is some evidence that Jane was more conservative in religion than George and this might have caused some tension between them but even if this was true it wouldn't have caused the deep, vicious hatred between them that is so often shown in fiction.
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theanneboleynfiles |
18. RE: <font><font>la orientación sexual de George</font></font>
Mar 18 2012, 1:30 PM EDT
Yes, there's no evidence at all that George and Jane had an unhappy marriage. Some historians point out that the fact that it was childless is proof of that, but then Jane could have had miscarriages and stillbirths, or there could have been fertility issues, we don't know. I can't see Anne choosing to confide in Jane about Henry's lack of sexual prowess if Jane and George didn't get along.
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