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Discussion: catherine of aragon'marriage was it consumated ?
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henry's7thwife |
40. RE: catherine of aragon'marriage was it consumated ?
Oct 18 2011, 4:02 AM EDT
"Poor Arthur and Catherine. They were so young that they may not have even known how to consummate. Catherine may have been like Anne of Cleves and not known what exactly was supposed to happen.Knowing Isabella, she would have made sure Catherine knew what her duties were towards her new country and new husband. After all, the marriage was made in the name of dynastic alliance. And Arthur would certainly have known what to do. Anne of Cleves' mother, on the other hand, was over-protective of her daughter and did not consider it right to teach her the facts of life. If Henry did what he was supposed to have done, her innocence would not have mattered. So unless you are proposing Arthur disliked Catherine on first sight ... it doesn't hold much water. Do you find this valuable? |
ladyfraidy |
41. RE: catherine of aragon'marriage was it consumated ?
Oct 18 2011, 6:11 AM EDT
"Knowing Isabella, she would have made sure Catherine knew what her duties were towards her new country and new husband. After all, the marriage was made in the name of dynastic alliance. And Arthur would certainly have known what to do.What I meant was that maybe Arthur liked what he saw too much. Things may have went a little too fast. Also, Catherine may not have wanted to embarrass her dead husband by saying too much about any of it until it came down to losing her family and crown. Do you find this valuable? |
princess212 |
42. RE: catherine of aragon'marriage was it consumated ?
Oct 18 2011, 12:31 PM EDT
| Post edited: Oct 18 2011, 3:15 PM EDT
"Thats H7W, JA :P Unless you think there is another 7th contender for Henry's affections :PBut didn't Henry talk about how he couldn't consummate the marriage with Anne of Cleves? So maybe he wasn't too ashamed? Do you find this valuable? |
freya9 |
43. RE: catherine of aragon'marriage was it consumated ?
Oct 18 2011, 2:25 PM EDT
Henry did admit to not being able to consumate his marriage to Anne but he was very clear that it was her fault. He said that he could not be really impotent as he still had 'night emissions'.
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juliana-angela |
44. RE: catherine of aragon'marriage was it consumated ?
Oct 18 2011, 2:58 PM EDT
Hi H7W, just a quick reply this time...As far as Dona Elvira was concerned, she was loyal to Queen Isabella, it was after her death that she followed her brother in siding with the Queen's son-in-law Philip of Burgundy rather than her widower Ferdinand of Aragon. She could have lied, but it is difficult to know why she should have done so given the risk of exposure. Henry might have been too embarrassed to reply to Katherine's challenge, but if Katherine wasn't a virgin when she married Henry, she would have been taking an unnecessary risk by posing the question to him. In fact, I think that Katherine's whole attitude and behaviour supports the thesis that the marriage was not consummated. She could have simply stated that the Pope issued a dispensation to validate the marriage and left it at that but she went on ad nauseum about being a virgin, setting up the oath-taking in front of the Papal legate and bringing the matter up at the Blackfriars 'court'. I am sure that you are right, though, about Katherine knowing what was supposed to happen on her wedding night - either Isabella would have given her a 'birds and bees' talk or she would have arranged for a suitable lady (maybe even Donna Elvira) to do it. And if Juan de Gomarra's testimony was truthful, Katherine knew enough to be disappointed! 1 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you? |
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princess212 |
45. RE: catherine of aragon'marriage was it consumated ?
Oct 18 2011, 4:38 PM EDT
| Post edited: Oct 18 2011, 4:41 PM EDT
"I should think that Arthur being the royal heir, would not have lied about this. Also remember, Catherine was kept under observation after Arthur died to ensure she was not pregnant. Surely she would have said something at this stage if there was no consummation?Out of curiosity where did you find out that Henry said Mary was conceived in good faith? I keep hearing that henry was all out at first with an annulment and didn't hear about keeping Mary as a legitimate princess. Cause if that is so, then what was Catherine of Aragon doing? edit: Although if she didn't consumate the marriage then I do not expect her to say she did when she didn't. That wouldn't be fair to her. Do you find this valuable? |
HeverRose |
46. RE: catherine of aragon'marriage was it consumated ?
Oct 19 2011, 2:06 PM EDT
| Post edited: Oct 19 2011, 2:25 PM EDT
One thing we have to remember about Arthur and Catherine is that they were very young, like fifteen and / or sixteen. Even though much more was expected of younger people back then than is expected today, that doesn't mean they were any more competent than kids that age today.We cannot put upon them the same standards that one would take for granted in adults, such as the ability to express truthfully the particulars of one's sexual behaviour ( hell, few people can honestly talk about that when they are grown up even in today's more relaxed culture) and we certainly cannot expect any great skill or ability on their part in that area. I am enjoying the debate here and it is a fascinating debate, with valid points made on both sides. Both Juliana and Henry's 7thwife make very cogent points for each side. I still take the position that I mentioned above: that the truth lies somewhere in between the black and white polarities of consummation vs non consummation. Much of life is gray. I believe that Arthur made some moves on Catherine but maybe did not quite accomplish all of it. I think Cathrine knew that it wasn't done right and that technically she was still a virgin. That is the only scenario that explains both people's positions and also allows for the confusion that ensued amongst the grownups and caused them to get a double dispensation. . 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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freya9 |
47. RE: catherine of aragon'marriage was it consumated ?
Oct 19 2011, 2:42 PM EDT
"One thing we have to remember about Arthur and Catherine is that they were very young, like fifteen and / or sixteen. Even though much more was expected of younger people back then than is expected today, that doesn't mean they were any more competent than kids that age today.I have to disagree with you on two points. Firstly children and teenagers were on the whole more competent in the Tudor period than in our modern society. The very fact that during this period we have records of them marrying and raising families, working, fighting in armies and dying for their faith proves this. What is expected of us in the society we live in has a great effect on our personalities and abilities. Secondly outside western society, and to a lesser extent within it, we have teenagers they same age as the royal couple having sex and producing children. Some even younger. Do you find this valuable? |
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juliana-angela |
48. RE: catherine of aragon'marriage was it consumated ?
Oct 19 2011, 3:28 PM EDT
"I have to disagree with you on two points. Firstly children and teenagers were on the whole more competent in the Tudor period than in our modern society. The very fact that during this period we have records of them marrying and raising families, working, fighting in armies and dying for their faith proves this. What is expected of us in the society we live in has a great effect on our personalities and abilities. Secondly outside western society, and to a lesser extent within it, we have teenagers they same age as the royal couple having sex and producing children. Some even younger."I think that is correct up to a point - teenagers were expected then to have a more adult role, as HeverRose acknowledged in her post, but as far as marital relations were concerned, a lot must have depended on the people involved. For example, the marriage of Henry Fitzroy, contracted when he was fourteen, was never consummated, presumably because he was young for his age and physically weak (he died three years later). Katherine's uncle, Henry IV of Castile, married her aunt Blanche of Aragon when he was fifteen and she was sixteen. The wedding night was a disaster, with everyone waiting to see bloodstained sheets which never came, and the marriage was eventually dissolved, still unconsummated, thirteen years later. Some couples obviously did consummate their marriages in their mid-teens - one of the witnesses in the 'Great Matter', the Earl of Shrewbury, said that he assumed that Arthur and Katherine had had sex because he had consummated his own marriage at fifteen and a half. But others probably took a while to 'get going', and unfortunately, time was something that Arthur and Katherine didn't have. 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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HeverRose |
49. RE: catherine of aragon'marriage was it consumated ?
Oct 19 2011, 3:51 PM EDT
Yes of course. During most of the past 100,000 years, people reproduced much earlier. Nature prepares humans for reproduction at puberty. The simpler the society, the less problematic that is.The more developed a society, the more there would be an emotional gap as young people take on their responsibilities. I think in societies where much is expected of young people, they would simply wing it. The Tudor age is also not known for much emotional support on the part of adults towards children, so it must have been even worse for them. Do you find this valuable? |
MsSquirrly |
50. RE: catherine of aragon'marriage was it consumated ?
Oct 20 2011, 12:22 AM EDT
Here's a few points to consider regarding each of the three people involved.Arthur --- nothing was ever written about him being weak or sickly DURING his lifetime. Yes, he was premature but he was said to be "strong and able". Sure, it was said that he was not much of a sportsman as his brother but that doesn't mean much. There are lots of perfectly healthy people who prefer not to take part in sports. Katherine --- According to Antonia Fraser, what she testified to at Blackfriars was 'that from the embraces of her first husband she entered this marriage as a virgin and an immaculate woman'. That being said, we know Katherine was a fiercely devout Catholic. The fact that the pope had given her a dispensation to get married again was that 'from God' she had been pronounced free to marry again. Henry --- I don't believe it mattered to him that she had or had not consummated her marriage to his brother since the scriptures he was using to show that his marriage was not blessed by God were : Leviticus XVIII, 16 'Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it is thy brother's nakedness'. And from chapter XX, 'If a man shall take his brother's wife, it is an unclean thing: he hath uncovered his brother's nakedness; they shall be childless' The fact that she had been married to his brother was enough...and certainly she had lain in his bed several times. 3 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you? |
Anne'sCurls |
51. RE: catherine of aragon'marriage was it consumated ?
Oct 23 2011, 2:29 AM EDT
There is strong evidence on both sides, but when it gets down to it the only real strong evidence that it was t consummated comes from Katharine's words. I beige there is no evidence to prove Arthur was like Louis of France or Peter of Russia; it seems when they needed to prove she was a virgin that is when these stories popped up of him being to weak to consummate or had a problem like Louis. I could be wrong about this, I admit I am not that interested in KOA.2 out of 4 found this valuable. Do you? |
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juliana-angela |
52. RE: catherine of aragon'marriage was it consumated ?
Oct 23 2011, 8:18 AM EDT
"There is strong evidence on both sides, but when it gets down to it the only real strong evidence that it was t consummated comes from Katharine's words. I beige there is no evidence to prove Arthur was like Louis of France or Peter of Russia; it seems when they needed to prove she was a virgin that is when these stories popped up of him being to weak to consummate or had a problem like Louis. I could be wrong about this, I admit I am not that interested in KOA.Do you mean Arthur's words? Because Katherine's reported words (albeit reported years later, as were Arthur's) indicated that the marriage was not consummated. 1 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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HeverRose |
53. RE: catherine of aragon'marriage was it consumated ?
Oct 23 2011, 11:33 AM EDT
There is no physical evidence ( as in an examination by a pysician ( whatever that would have entailed bacck then)) or circumstantial evidence ( as in blood stained sheets, which everyone was always on the look out for). That is why there is the controversy. Do you find this valuable? |
TansyUduri |
54. RE: catherine of aragon'marriage was it consumated ?
Mar 25 2012, 5:37 PM EDT
"do you believe catherine of Aragon was untouched by arthur when she married king Henri ?"Katherine was older then Arther by several years. It's possible she did not want to bed a boy. Further more it would have been relativity simple to use blood of another animal to stain the bed sheets. Katherine was deeply religious and swore before god it was not consummated. I am inclined to believe it was not 0 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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juliana-angela |
55. RE: catherine of aragon'marriage was it consumated ?
Mar 25 2012, 7:07 PM EDT
"Katherine was older then Arther by several years. "Katherine was less than a year older than Arthur - she was born on 16th December 1485 and he on 20th September 1486. One of the attractions of the match for both sets of parents was that the couple were more or less the same age. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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ladyfraidy |
56. RE: catherine of aragon'marriage was it consumated ?
Mar 26 2012, 8:34 PM EDT
When KOA came to England she could not speak English. That seems strange. If Isabella was preparing her so well for her marriage would she not have been taught english? She may have known what to do in the bed but young virgins would not have taken the lead. I don't think Arthur knew what to do. If so I think she would have gotten pregnant right away. Do you find this valuable? |
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freya9 |
57. RE: catherine of aragon'marriage was it consumated ?
Mar 27 2012, 12:51 PM EDT
Katherine and Arthur would have told what was expected of them. Remember how shocked everyone was when Anne of Cleves was found to be ignorant in this matter. When Katherine came to England she could speak basic English but was not fluent. Both Katherine and Arthur were fluent in Latin.
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howardfan |
58. RE: catherine of aragon'marriage was it consumated ?
Mar 28 2012, 1:55 AM EDT
"I have heard this argument before that Katherine was so religious she wouldn't have lied. However, we know she did lie at least once when she wrote to her father about a miscarriage. The other thing to consider is....that when you are catholic, you believe that when you sin, you can gain absolution by confessing your sin and doing penance. It is known that she took to wearing hair shirts.....and that begs the question...why did she do that? These are just things to ponder. I am not saying one way or the other but it is something to think about."yes true. David starkey and Antonia fraser both point out KOAs letter to her father about miscarriage. This question is very fascinating and noone will ever really know I guess, is it in any way similar to the question of Elizabeth's virginity? most were rumours that she slept with dudely and the young hatton however her ladies in waiting swore to her virtue. I honestly do not know if KOA slept with arthur or not, even though they were both young and possibly rather nervous, most people including members of the court during anne boleyns reign believed that katherine was indeed a virgin when she married henry Do you find this valuable? |
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freya9 |
59. RE: catherine of aragon'marriage was it consumated ?
Apr 2 2012, 12:41 PM EDT
Catherine did break the seal on one of her confessions to prove she was telling the truth. But then she could have made a subsequent confession about the first which was not made public. She had a strong belief in her god given destiny to be Queen of England and promote Anglo-Spanish realtions. Being brought up by Queen Isabella giving in would not have been an option.
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