Location: CONTROVERSIES of the Tudors

Discussion: catherine of aragon'marriage was it consumated ?Reported This is a featured thread

Category: Discussion Forum / History
Showing 1 - 20 of 60  |  Show  posts at a time
1 2 3 | Next
FrancePetre
FrancePetre
catherine of aragon'marriage was it consumated ?
Oct 14 2011, 5:15 AM EDT | Post edited: Oct 14 2011, 5:15 AM EDT
do you believe catherine of Aragon was untouched by arthur when she married king Henri ? 2  out of 2 found this valuable. Do you?    
freya9
freya9
1. RE: catherine of aragon'marriage was it consumated ?
Oct 14 2011, 3:14 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 14 2011, 3:14 PM EDT
Poor Arthur, at least he never knew how his most personal buisness (or a slander ?) has been gossiped about for hundreds of years. David Starkey has a theory that because Catherine blamed herself for Arthur's death (at the time it was widely believed that Arthur, like Catherine's brother Juan, had weakened himself in the marital bed) that she repressed the memory of intercourse. 1  out of 1 found this valuable. Do you?    
LadyTudorsFan
LadyTudorsFan
2. RE: catherine of aragon'marriage was it consumated ?
Oct 14 2011, 8:45 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 14 2011, 8:45 PM EDT
Definitely. Unless 40-lock chastity belts were the fashion, I just can't see how a teenager with raging hormones and a Spanish siren could be locked in the same castle for six months and not at least think about getting it on! :) 0  out of 1 found this valuable. Do you?    
Conyle
Conyle
3. RE: catherine of aragon'marriage was it consumated ?
Oct 14 2011, 8:49 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 14 2011, 8:49 PM EDT
I've always thought yes, it was consummated. However, I've heard some really compelling arguments made right here on this Wiki that led me to believe otherwise. So in the end, I have no idea! lol 2  out of 2 found this valuable. Do you?    
Elliemental
Elliemental
4. RE: catherine of aragon'marriage was it consumated ?
Oct 14 2011, 11:13 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 14 2011, 11:13 PM EDT
I'm simply in no position to say whether it was, or not. There is no way to prove this one way, or the other.

However, the marriage lasted for six months. Surely, they must have.... 2  out of 3 found this valuable. Do you?    
freya9
freya9
5. RE: catherine of aragon'marriage was it consumated ?
Oct 15 2011, 7:21 AM EDT | Post edited: Oct 15 2011, 7:21 AM EDT
If for whatever reason they never managed full intercourse they must have done something. Even if it was only kissing and cuddling. Do you find this valuable?    
FrancePetre
FrancePetre
6. RE: catherine of aragon'marriage was it consumated ?
Oct 15 2011, 8:51 AM EDT | Post edited: Oct 15 2011, 8:51 AM EDT
"If for whatever reason they never managed full intercourse they must have done something. Even if it was only kissing and cuddling."
I believe the marriage was not consumated as , Arthur was young and had health issues and probably sexual ambiguities such as louis the 16 th of france who stayed married with marie antoinette for years before having full intercourse with her and louis the 13th was also complicated in that area ... also Catherine of aragon was so religious , I donnot believe she would have swear in confession that she was un touched , she believed that would have damned her to hell , she was far too obssessed with religion to lie about something so crucial ..but perhaps the kissed and cuddled 2  out of 2 found this valuable. Do you?    
MsSquirrly
MsSquirrly
7. RE: catherine of aragon'marriage was it consumated ?
Oct 15 2011, 9:42 AM EDT | Post edited: Oct 15 2011, 9:42 AM EDT
"I believe the marriage was not consumated as , Arthur was young and had health issues and probably sexual ambiguities such as louis the 16 th of france who stayed married with marie antoinette for years before having full intercourse with her and louis the 13th was also complicated in that area ... also Catherine of aragon was so religious , I donnot believe she would have swear in confession that she was un touched , she believed that would have damned her to hell , she was far too obssessed with religion to lie about something so crucial ..but perhaps the kissed and cuddled "
I have heard this argument before that Katherine was so religious she wouldn't have lied. However, we know she did lie at least once when she wrote to her father about a miscarriage. The other thing to consider is....that when you are catholic, you believe that when you sin, you can gain absolution by confessing your sin and doing penance. It is known that she took to wearing hair shirts.....and that begs the question...why did she do that? These are just things to ponder. I am not saying one way or the other but it is something to think about. 4  out of 4 found this valuable. Do you?    
royalfalcon
royalfalcon
8. RE: catherine of aragon'marriage was it consumated ?
Oct 15 2011, 12:47 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 18 2011, 3:32 PM EDT
Well we will simply never know the answer to this one for sure. If I had to come down on one side or the other. I would say yes I believe in all probability the marriage was consumated. 2  out of 3 found this valuable. Do you?    
Elliemental
Elliemental
9. RE: catherine of aragon'marriage was it consumated ?
Oct 15 2011, 12:55 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 15 2011, 12:55 PM EDT
"I believe the marriage was not consumated as , Arthur was young and had health issues and probably sexual ambiguities such as louis the 16 th of france who stayed married with marie antoinette for years before having full intercourse with her and louis the 13th was also complicated in that area ... also Catherine of aragon was so religious , I donnot believe she would have swear in confession that she was un touched , she believed that would have damned her to hell , she was far too obssessed with religion to lie about something so crucial ..but perhaps the kissed and cuddled "
Arthur died very suddenly, and unexpectedly. He had no "health issues". 4  out of 6 found this valuable. Do you?    
HeverRose
HeverRose
10. RE: catherine of aragon'marriage was it consumated ?
Oct 15 2011, 1:33 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 15 2011, 1:33 PM EDT
The problem here is that the only two comments made by the couple themselves concerning consummation are very agenda driven.

Arthur's comment that being a husband was thirsty work and that he had been "inside Spain" could easily just be a boast to make himself look good. 15 year old boys are known to do that.

Katherine's assertion that the marriage was not consummated offered her and Mary the only protection against the divorce, so even if she normally did not lie, one can hardly blame her in this.

Both comments were spurred on by very deep emotions and the need to avoid feeling personally mortified.
 Do you find this valuable?    
Jes89
Jes89
11. RE: catherine of aragon'marriage was it consumated ?
Oct 15 2011, 1:39 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 15 2011, 1:39 PM EDT
depends of my time, sometimes i get the feeling she did lie, in order to save her and Mary and i completely agree with her in this.
Other times, i think she was being sincere, so i really don't know. Do you find this valuable?    
MsSquirrly
MsSquirrly
12. RE: catherine of aragon'marriage was it consumated ?
Oct 15 2011, 2:39 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 15 2011, 2:39 PM EDT
"The problem here is that the only two comments made by the couple themselves concerning consummation are very agenda driven.

Arthur's comment that being a husband was thirsty work and that he had been "inside Spain" could easily just be a boast to make himself look good. 15 year old boys are known to do that.

Katherine's assertion that the marriage was not consummated offered her and Mary the only protection against the divorce, so even if she normally did not lie, one can hardly blame her in this.

Both comments were spurred on by very deep emotions and the need to avoid feeling personally mortified.
"
yes and something else to consider. Katherine never made any comments at the time of the supposed consummation or even before she married Henry. There were in fact two dispensations from the pope....one saying that the union with Arthur was consummated and one saying it wasn't. If it wasn't, why was that necessary? It was only when Henry challenged it that Katherine made a public statement several years later. 1  out of 1 found this valuable. Do you?    
royalfalcon
royalfalcon
13. RE: catherine of aragon'marriage was it consumated ?
Oct 15 2011, 2:45 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 15 2011, 2:45 PM EDT
"yes and something else to consider. Katherine never made any comments at the time of the supposed consummation or even before she married Henry. There were in fact two dispensations from the pope....one saying that the union with Arthur was consummated and one saying it wasn't. If it wasn't, why was that necessary? It was only when Henry challenged it that Katherine made a public statement several years later. "
I remember David Starkey saying on one of his DVD's that they adopted a belt and braces approach to cover either situation ie whether the union was consummated or not. 1  out of 1 found this valuable. Do you?    
MsSquirrly
MsSquirrly
14. RE: catherine of aragon'marriage was it consumated ?
Oct 15 2011, 3:12 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 15 2011, 3:12 PM EDT
"I remember David Starkey saying on one of his DVD's that they adopted a belt and braces approach to cover either situation ie whether the union was consummated or not."
Yes I remember him saying that. And probably no one wanted to actually ask her as its a sensitive subject. However, it does make you think. She didn't say anything at the time. It was only later when her (and her daughter's) future were in jeopardy. I am sure no one would blame her if she lied. 1  out of 1 found this valuable. Do you?    
HeverRose
HeverRose
15. RE: catherine of aragon'marriage was it consumated ?
Oct 15 2011, 3:14 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 15 2011, 3:14 PM EDT
So why is that? Could they not have asked her? Was she asked and too shy to answer?

Back then people were not as twitchy about sex as in later centuries. And it would be an important question to ask a prospective bride of the King and ffor a royal princess to answer.
Do you find this valuable?    
MsSquirrly
MsSquirrly
16. RE: catherine of aragon'marriage was it consumated ?
Oct 15 2011, 7:02 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 15 2011, 7:02 PM EDT
"So why is that? Could they not have asked her? Was she asked and too shy to answer?

Back then people were not as twitchy about sex as in later centuries. And it would be an important question to ask a prospective bride of the King and ffor a royal princess to answer.
"
well probably Henry VII was just focused on his son Henry marrying Katherine and decided it was easiest to just get two dispensations to cover it all and no need to ask her. Never thinking that it would ever be a problem later. Do you find this valuable?    
HeverRose
HeverRose
17. RE: catherine of aragon'marriage was it consumated ?
Oct 15 2011, 7:45 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 15 2011, 7:45 PM EDT
Good point. In fact I don't think they got on very well, especially since he was keeping her in poverty.

You are right. He probably never thought of asking her. Do you find this valuable?    
ladyfraidy
ladyfraidy
18. RE: catherine of aragon'marriage was it consumated ?
Oct 15 2011, 8:51 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 15 2011, 8:51 PM EDT
Strange that if it was consummated why did she not get pregnant? She was plenty fertile with Henry. 1  out of 1 found this valuable. Do you?    
FrancePetre
FrancePetre
19. RE: catherine of aragon'marriage was it consumated ?
Oct 15 2011, 9:18 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 15 2011, 9:18 PM EDT
I stll believe she was not and that it woul d ne no such a surprise , it took six all years for louis the 16 th to have full ntercourse with marir antoinette ....somme arranged marriages especially so young donnot work straight away , for various reasons , indeed your points are pertinent and I am not quiet sure anymore but i think it is likely she told the truth on that matter 1  out of 1 found this valuable. Do you?    
1 2 3 | Next