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Jes89 |
Mary I is a Criminal, according to this list.
Jul 26 2011, 12:12 AM EDT
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/news/the-ten-most-notorious-female-criminals-1792598.htmlDon't know if you already see this, but according to this list Mary is a criminal. 1 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you?
Keyword tags:
Bloody Mary
Criminal
Mary I
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juliana-angela |
1. RE: Mary I is a Criminal, according to this list.
Jul 26 2011, 1:56 PM EDT
Rather unfair, particularly as the list does not include Britain's biggest female serial killer, Mary Ann Cotton.Mary Ann, who lived in County Durham, poisoned at least twenty people, including several husbands, lovers and some of her own children in order to collect the insurance money. She was hanged in 1873. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Reggie19 |
2. RE: Mary I is a Criminal, according to this list.
Jul 26 2011, 4:26 PM EDT
| Post edited: Jul 26 2011, 4:55 PM EDT
I'm not sure whether I want to clench my fists and pummel a pillow after reading that article, or shake my head and sigh, with how frustrated reading that article made me.That she is placed in the same category as Myra Hindley who kidnapped, sexually abused and murdered several children just baffles me to no end. Clearly, this article has been published by someone viewing Mary I from a 21st Century perspective, with no regard for the culture of the time, though I'm sure the definition of a criminal was the same then as it is now ("one that has committed or been legally convicted of a crime"). 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Kittywake09 |
3. RE: Mary I is a Criminal, according to this list.
Jul 26 2011, 5:17 PM EDT
"Rather unfair, particularly as the list does not include Britain's biggest female serial killer, Mary Ann Cotton.I read this yesterday and was very surprised at this article. Mary Ann Cotton deserves to be on that list indeed and also spraing to mind reading it. Thank for posting juliana-angea 0 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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juliana-angela |
4. RE: Mary I is a Criminal, according to this list.
Jul 26 2011, 5:28 PM EDT
Yes, burning heretics was hardly unusual in the sixteenth century, and would not have been regarded as criminal, whatever we may think of it now.However, bumping off your relatives for cash, as Mary Ann did, would have been a crime in any period of history! 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Jes89 |
5. RE: Mary I is a Criminal, according to this list.
Jul 26 2011, 5:33 PM EDT
Even worst is to read some kind of coments like these:http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Tudor-Tutor/180837450298 please, read the topic: Today's anniverary girl, Mary I, has made it onto this list of "Most Notorious Female Criminals." They do mention that she is "not officially a criminal." That's helpful. Hmmm. The ten most notorious female criminals. 0 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Elliemental |
6. RE: Mary I is a Criminal, according to this list.
Jul 27 2011, 10:57 AM EDT
This was so ridiculous that I'm reluctant to favour it with comment. It was bad enough that she was listed at all, but ranked higher than Myra Hindley (the most notorious of recent child killers, and one half of the Moore's Murderers)? Execerable.
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jrmslady09 |
7. RE: Mary I is a Criminal, according to this list.
Jul 27 2011, 7:54 PM EDT
Jeez!!! Mary is a nearly an innocent compared to the rest of the women on that list!!!
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HeverRose |
8. RE: Mary I is a Criminal, according to this list.
Jul 27 2011, 8:13 PM EDT
They must just want to be sensationalist. And why are the Manson girls missing from this list? And Mary Surrat...I just saw the film about her. My feeling is she knew that something was up but had no active role in the assasination of President Lincoln.Queen Mary's burning of the Protestants is hard to swallow but I would not include her in any top 10 list of women criminals!!! They ought to sack the person who came up with these candidates. 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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LadyTudorsFan |
9. RE: Mary I is a Criminal, according to this list.
Jul 28 2011, 5:24 PM EDT
I've been reading "Mary Tudor - England's First Queen" by Anna Whitelock (I even got to meet the author last year) which is a very good book aiming to kind of rehabiliate her memory. Even though the burning of the Protestants cannot be ignored, I agree that there has been a lot worser crimes committed. Mary was a product of her time - she was incredibly religious and like any overly religious person of the 16th century, probably felt their decisions, what ever they were, were justified by their beliefs. As a result, I don't think she was any better than anyone else in that period - they were all as bad as each other. Her father alone enforced what he believed was right, what he believed was the will of God and this lead to loss of lives. I sometimes wonder if it was due to the fact that Mary was half-Spanish so was often considered to be more of a "Spanish Queen" , was married to the not very popular Phillip of Spain and had effectively brought the Spanish Inquisition to England that she has gained some notoriety. If she had been completely English and a man, would she have still been branded a "criminal" ? 3 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Reggie19 |
10. RE: Mary I is a Criminal, according to this list.
Jul 28 2011, 7:18 PM EDT
"I've been reading "Mary Tudor - England's First Queen" by Anna Whitelock (I even got to meet the author last year) which is a very good book aiming to kind of rehabiliate her memory. Even though the burning of the Protestants cannot be ignored, I agree that there has been a lot worser crimes committed.The fact of the matter is, if Mary is on that list, then every other absolutist monarch should be too. The burning of Protestants, while horrific, was not considered a crime, and therefore she does not deserve to be branded as a criminal. I think her unpopularity stems from the fact she choose to marry, not so much who she married, but that she bound England to another country, and would inevitably share power with other territories. Of course, Spain was a very powerful empire, and the reason for Wyatt's rebellion was contempt for the Spanish themselves. I'm not sure it had anything to do with anyone in particular, it mostly boiled down to the distrust between the two countries, I believe. 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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HeverRose |
11. RE: Mary I is a Criminal, according to this list.
Jul 29 2011, 1:48 PM EDT
| Post edited: Jul 29 2011, 6:18 PM EDT
The problem with Mary is that she was delusional. Any way you slice it. She was delusional even by the standards of her own time. She was deluded about the state of the country, about Phillip, about her pregnacies. And then some 300 people died due to her delusions. These people who died were doing nothing wrong based upon the laws of the previous 5 years. They were not criminals. .Everyone who is a criminal is, in my mind, a bit off. They either believe they are justified in their actions or living in their own world with their own sense of right and wrong. i still don't think that Mary was a criminal, but she was certainly a person who caused a lot of people a lot of suffering. 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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LadyTudorsFan |
12. RE: Mary I is a Criminal, according to this list.
Jul 31 2011, 6:23 PM EDT
"The problem with Mary is that she was delusional. Any way you slice it. She was delusional even by the standards of her own time. She was deluded about the state of the country, about Phillip, about her pregnacies. And then some 300 people died due to her delusions. These people who died were doing nothing wrong based upon the laws of the previous 5 years. They were not criminals. .Yeah I agree that her religious beliefs overtook common sense. She definitely wasn't thinking rationally. I do feel some sympathy for her though - I think her sad life contributed to her becoming a bit delusional. She was kept away from her mother for years, ddn't get to see her mother before she died, she suffered cruelty under her step-mother, she was bastardized and had everything that she was entitled to taken away - even her own father threatened to have her executed if she didn't given in and admit she was illegitimate. To top it all, her own husband then abandons her. It's no surprise that religion became something that must have given her some sort of strength - unfortunately, so much that it obviously clouded her judgement and made her see anything that was a threat to what she believed in as "the enemy". Do you find this valuable? |
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lettice |
13. RE: Mary I is a Criminal, according to this list.
Aug 1 2011, 2:48 PM EDT
"Yeah I agree that her religious beliefs overtook common sense. She definitely wasn't thinking rationally. I do feel some sympathy for her though - I think her sad life contributed to her becoming a bit delusional. She was kept away from her mother for years, ddn't get to see her mother before she died, she suffered cruelty under her step-mother, she was bastardized and had everything that she was entitled to taken away - even her own father threatened to have her executed if she didn't given in and admit she was illegitimate. To top it all, her own husband then abandons her. It's no surprise that religion became something that must have given her some sort of strength - unfortunately, so much that it obviously clouded her judgement and made her see anything that was a threat to what she believed in as "the enemy"."Mary was actually lenient towards Prtoestants until after the Wyatt Rebellion. Prior to the rebellion, she was hoping to convert England back to the Catholic church over time as she knew it would be no easy chore. Eventually Parliament reinstated the burnings( an old law from the 1400"s) & Mary turned to them out of fear . I do not justify her actions; they were wrong. Much of what she did once she was Queen, incited her people, however, I do not see her has having criminal intent. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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LadyTudorsFan |
14. RE: Mary I is a Criminal, according to this list.
Aug 2 2011, 5:47 PM EDT
Apparently when Lady Jane Grey and Guidlford Dudley were put in the Tower, Mary didn't want them executed. Mary saw them as only innocent children, used by their ambitious families. It was only after the Wyatt Rebellion that she was put under pressure from Spain and her counsellors to sign their death warrants as they were seen as potential figureheads for further rebellion. If this is true, it shows that Mary wasn't totally devoid of feeling or conscience, so in that respect to brand her a criminal is a bit inaccurate as it would suggest that she had no scruples.
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HeverRose |
15. RE: Mary I is a Criminal, according to this list.
Aug 2 2011, 8:03 PM EDT
"Apparently when Lady Jane Grey and Guidlford Dudley were put in the Tower, Mary didn't want them executed. Mary saw them as only innocent children, used by their ambitious families. It was only after the Wyatt Rebellion that she was put under pressure from Spain and her counsellors to sign their death warrants as they were seen as potential figureheads for further rebellion. If this is true, it shows that Mary wasn't totally devoid of feeling or conscience, so in that respect to brand her a criminal is a bit inaccurate as it would suggest that she had no scruples."I read in several accounts that the Spanish ambassador at that time urged Mary to execute Jane and Guildford. When Mary demurred, which she did do at the outset, he stepped up the pressure and told her that Phillip would not marry her unless they were executed. She finally gave in and had them put to death so that she could get married. Of course the rebellion and the actual threat of Jane as a Protestant figurehead was real, no doubt, but when you throw the marriage thing into the mix, and we know how much Mary wanted to get married, it does compromise her a wee bit, I think. Do you find this valuable? |
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Jes89 |
16. RE: Mary I is a Criminal, according to this list.
Aug 3 2011, 12:26 PM EDT
| Post edited: Aug 3 2011, 12:31 PM EDT
Mary did a lot of people suffer, indeed, this is the problem when you have an absolut power in your hands and live in a tumultuous era. And that's another problem which other people who lived in other Tudor reigns and other dinasty's tooabout Jane and her husband issue, Mary was urged by her council to leave her kindness and act more like a monarch, show no mercy. If Jane's father wasn't involved, there was a good chance that the poor young girl to survive. About the marriage, Mary, unfortunately was already in love for Philip, still the marriage should bring more than affection she obviously was looking for (and for a long time) but children, an heir, especially a Catholic heir to take down the chances of Annes daughter become queen. Do you find this valuable? |
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HeverRose |
17. RE: Mary I is a Criminal, according to this list.
Aug 3 2011, 12:55 PM EDT
| Post edited: Aug 3 2011, 1:13 PM EDT
Extremely good points, Jes, and it shows just how complicated it was for Mary.I do have sympathy for Mary because her life was so harrowing but she made really really bad decisions in just about everything. Elizabeth was no less an absolute monarch and did not make any bad decisions. She was able to stand back and make decisions that were in the best interest of her country, whereas Mary did was was best ( or so she thought ) for herself. That is what I meant above when i said she was delusional. When someone is delusional they cannot see reality clearly; they are imprisoned in their own world. Do you find this valuable? |
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juliana-angela |
18. RE: Mary I is a Criminal, according to this list.
Aug 3 2011, 1:34 PM EDT
"Extremely good points, Jes, and it shows just how complicated it was for Mary.I don't think that it is true to say that Elizabeth never made a bad decision, although she certainly made less than Mary. Her promotion of her favourites, especially the Earl of Essex, was not in the best interests of the country, even though she drew back from granting him too much power. And there were times when Elizabeth was very unpopular and was persuaded by her advisors to persecute Catholics, especially towards the end of her reign. I also think that Mary thought that she was acting in the best interests of the country in the same way that Elizabeth did. She married for an alliance and for a Catholic heir as much as for personal reasons, in the same way that Elizabeth chose not to marry for a mixture of personal and political.motives. Mary also made a point of curtailing Phiip's powers as Elizabeth had those of her favourites. There is also the problem of comparing Mary's short reign with Elizabeth's very long one: if the latter had died of smallpox in 1563, as she almost did, would we see her as a successful queen?. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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HeverRose |
19. RE: Mary I is a Criminal, according to this list.
Aug 3 2011, 2:57 PM EDT
If you look at the motivation behind each queen's actions then it becomes evident that it was ALL personal to Mary and it was ALL political to Elizabeth.Mary thought she was acting in the best inerest of the country but the real drive for all of Mary''s behaviour and actions came from inside her and from her emotional reaction to things, whether it concerned her religion or her marriage, Even starting with her parents' divorce. Not that it wasn't a big deal for a young girl but it wasn't smart, or beneficial to her to be so visibly stubborn about it. Elizabeth, on the other hand, always hedged her bets.She too had childhood trauma over her parents but she put a good face on it and did not let it undo her where it counted: among people and at court. She suffered privately over it but never made a fuss about it to others. That allowed her later to be seen as a reasonable person rather than a person done wrong with a chip on her shoulder. Elizabeth stopped short of any excess, any action that could turn out badly. She did not marry Dudley when she could have because the country was against it. Mary married a foreigner when her country was obviosly against it as well but she did not care . She wanted to marry HIM. As for the Catholics, Elizabeth left them alone until the plotting and the campaigns involving Mary Queen of Scots put her in real danger. Mary persecuted the Protestants because she didn't like them and she thought they were wrong, not because they posed a specific danger. A lot of people were executed in Elizabeth's reign too but I don't know of one person who went innocently to their death. Mary's burning victims were innocent by any reasonable standard. Elizabeth was able to see outside herself, and therefore her appearance to the world around her was paramount. That is great political acumen that Mary did not have.. . . 1 out of 4 found this valuable. Do you? |