Location: Anne Boleyn

Discussion: Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall?

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freya9	40. RE: Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall? Jun 5 2011, 3:22 PM EDT \| Post edited: Jun 5 2011, 3:22 PM EDT Good point. There was an element of truth in the fact that Anne enjoyed flirting with gentlemen of the court. If she had produced a son she would have been in favour with the King and Henry would have seen this for what it was i.e harmless banter. But with his disapointment he was open to read into this more than what was there. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
LilRebelChick	41. RE: Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall? Jun 6 2011, 12:22 AM EDT "Recently the Anne Boleyn Files asked this question with the following multiple choice answer and I thought it was a pretty good question, what do you think? Do you think the fall of Anne Boleyn was the idea of:- a) Henry VIII who then ordered Cromwell to get rid of Anne b) Thomas Cromwell who convinced Henry that Anne was guilty c) Thomas Cromwell and Henry together d) Other" Like Alison Weir, I tend to lean more towards Cromwell. She makes some very convincing points in "Lady In the Tower". I was just reading that last night in fact. I think too that Anne's stubbornness, lack of friends and flirtatious nature didn't help matters much. She was a woman with a defiant nature and that was just her. I think Cromwell decided, its her or me and so bells began tolling. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
LilRebelChick	42. RE: Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall? Jun 6 2011, 12:27 AM EDT "There is something known as "a perfect storm." It is when a combination of events, each in its own way singular, occur together and in combination create a great destruction. Anne's fall in 1536 was the result of such a "perfect storm." There is no one element that can take 100 percent of the responsibility. Here are the various elements: 1. Loss of Henry's love and passion 2. No son 3.Anne's abrasive personality alienated people 4. Hatred of her by the people 5. Her Protestant leanings 6. Rising Seymours and the promotion of Jane as a candidate for Henry. 7. A corrupt and completely skewed justice system ( she was not allowed to have a defense. the verdict was a foregone conclusion.) 8. Cromwell's power to manipulate and control. 9. Henry's complete lack of loyalty to anyone who served him. 10. A culture of death and destruction of anyone who caused trouble or who was in the way.. 11. Henry's fall from his horse which could have caused her miscarriage. 12. Anne's mistreatment of Mary which caused her bad karma. (OK this might sound a bit weird but I believe in karma!) You start adding all this up and it is a phenomenal series of circumstances and events. There was just no surviving this. She was doomed. " Also, I was reading on a website that Henry's fall had something to do with the change in his personality and that he suffered from a rare condition which caused his wives body to attack fetuses, but he did father some healthy children though. Not many, but some. I believe too he was diabetic later in life which also can change one's personality as well. There was so much going on in those times and so much on the line for all. A mere mistake means your head back then. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Elliemental	43. RE: Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall? Jun 6 2011, 12:01 PM EDT "Like Alison Weir, I tend to lean more towards Cromwell. She makes some very convincing points in "Lady In the Tower". I was just reading that last night in fact. I think too that Anne's stubbornness, lack of friends and flirtatious nature didn't help matters much. She was a woman with a defiant nature and that was just her. I think Cromwell decided, its her or me and so bells began tolling. " Alison Weir also uses fake sources in "The Lady In The Tower". She is an abominable historian (a fantastic writer, though). As for Cromwell, he simply did not have the power to arrest the Queen, even if it was "him or her". Post reply 6 out of 7 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
LilRebelChick	44. RE: Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall? Jun 6 2011, 11:16 PM EDT "Alison Weir also uses fake sources in "The Lady In The Tower". She is an abominable historian (a fantastic writer, though). As for Cromwell, he simply did not have the power to arrest the Queen, even if it was "him or her". " Really, what makes you say her sources were unreliable or fake? I've never heard that before about Alison. In fact her books have glowing reviews. I've read several and I've done quite a bit of research on my own. Unfortunately, I don't have the means to travel to England to confirm nor do more in depth research as I'd prefer to. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
LilRebelChick	45. RE: Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall? Jun 6 2011, 11:18 PM EDT "Alison Weir also uses fake sources in "The Lady In The Tower". She is an abominable historian (a fantastic writer, though). As for Cromwell, he simply did not have the power to arrest the Queen, even if it was "him or her". " Also, if Cromwell had the power to arrest her, why didn't he? Post reply Do you find this valuable?
LilRebelChick	46. RE: Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall? Jun 7 2011, 2:12 AM EDT \| Post edited: Jun 7 2011, 2:12 AM EDT "Alison Weir also uses fake sources in "The Lady In The Tower". She is an abominable historian (a fantastic writer, though). As for Cromwell, he simply did not have the power to arrest the Queen, even if it was "him or her". " Please, share your sources from which you've gained such knowledge about Weir's 'fake' sources and have you, yourself been published? I'm not being rude when I ask these questions but if you make a statement like that against a renowned, best selling author, I'd hope you'd be able to prove your allegations and enlighten us all. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
freya9	47. RE: Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall? Jun 7 2011, 3:21 AM EDT \| Post edited: Jun 7 2011, 3:21 AM EDT "Also, if Cromwell had the power to arrest her, why didn't he?" To arrest someone on treason, especially someone as high as a Queen required a direct order from the King. Any power Cromwell had was dependant on Henry. Post reply 1 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
freya9	48. RE: Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall? Jun 7 2011, 3:28 AM EDT \| Post edited: Jun 7 2011, 3:28 AM EDT "I think Cromwell decided, its her or me and so bells began tolling. " Anne was not a threat to Cromwell. Henry was already taking advice on how to get rid of her by divorce. Why bother hatching a plot to get rid of someone that's already on their way out ? A lot is made of the fact that Anne threatened Cromwell but at this stage he was well aware she was unable to carry out these threats. Post reply 0 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
LilRebelChick	49. RE: Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall? Jun 7 2011, 5:04 AM EDT \| Post edited: Jun 7 2011, 5:04 AM EDT "To arrest someone on treason, especially someone as high as a Queen required a direct order from the King. Any power Cromwell had was dependant on Henry. " Then Cromwell DIDN'T have the power to arrest her then, did he? I was responding to Elliemental's statement that Cromwell could have arrested her if he'd wanted to and I was asking then why didn't he if he could do it on his own as she was saying. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
LilRebelChick	50. RE: Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall? Jun 7 2011, 5:08 AM EDT \| Post edited: Jun 7 2011, 5:08 AM EDT "Anne was not a threat to Cromwell. Henry was already taking advice on how to get rid of her by divorce. Why bother hatching a plot to get rid of someone that's already on their way out ? A lot is made of the fact that Anne threatened Cromwell but at this stage he was well aware she was unable to carry out these threats. " How are we to know if Cromwell was paranoid about Anne's being a threat to him or not? She was a powerful enemy, still. She still had some influence over the King and Cromwell had indeed seen what she was capable of when her back was up. I think Anne was still a perceived threat to Cromwell whether we can see the logic in it or not. Again, I tend to agree with Alison Weir's assessment that Cromwell found Anne to be a threat. Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
AJBates	51. RE: Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall? Jun 7 2011, 12:39 PM EDT I don't believe that Cromwell could be a threat to Anne. Henry at the stage wasn't as besotted with Anne as he was and frankly after their marriage all power and influence she had with Henry left. Whereas Cromwell was the person who picked up the slack that Wolsey left and unburdened Henry, and at the same time gave the King more power then he ever had before. Just like Wolsey the only person that could dethrone Cromwell in a sense, was another passionate love affair that Henry would do anything and listen to anyone to meet his outcome. And as Freya9 said Cromwell certainly didn't have the power to arrest a Queen. It could only come as a direct order and warrent from the King. Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
LadyTudorsFan	52. RE: Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall? Jun 7 2011, 4:09 PM EDT \| Post edited: Jun 7 2011, 4:09 PM EDT I'm not sure where I read it, but there was a theory that Anne had a condition which made it such that she could not carry another child after Elizabeth. It was something to do with blood groups. Even though she safely delivered Elizabeth, the condition made her body reject any child she conceived after that. Of course at the time they weren't aware of such a condition; it's only now Doctors know about this. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Elliemental	53. RE: Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall? Jun 7 2011, 5:21 PM EDT \| Post edited: Jun 7 2011, 5:21 PM EDT "Then Cromwell DIDN'T have the power to arrest her then, did he? I was responding to Elliemental's statement that Cromwell could have arrested her if he'd wanted to and I was asking then why didn't he if he could do it on his own as she was saying." No, thats not what I said. I said "Cromwell simply did not have the power to arrest Anne." I stated that clearly, so perhaps you misread my post. Also, many, many people were out to get Anne. Cromwell is merely the history world's favourite whipping boy to blame for Anne's downfall. Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
freya9	54. RE: Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall? Jun 8 2011, 5:04 PM EDT \| Post edited: Jun 8 2011, 5:04 PM EDT I wonder if Anne herself had given up hope of producing another healthy child. It was reported that after her initial joy at the news of Catherine of Aragon's death she became distraught. She wept and said that now the King could do to her what her had done to Catherine. This was while she was pregnant. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Grace_B	55. RE: Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall? Jun 15 2011, 12:00 PM EDT I think Cromwell. I believe Anne was not at all guilty, She was just very open with other men and was friendly to them instead of being all shy. Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
Naphae	56. RE: Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall? Jul 10 2011, 5:16 PM EDT \| Post edited: Jul 10 2011, 5:18 PM EDT It wasn't Cromwell! It were many factors that led to her downfall but never had Cromwell something to do with the beginning of it. He just did what was asked of him. He accepted her that's all. He didn't hate nor love her. It wasn't his business whom the king loved or not. And he got the task from the king to examine her case - no more no less. And of course, did he see that time has changed and that the King had already another woman in mind. But why blaming Crom for that? Anne Boleyn had a lot of other enemies at court, so why should Cromwell plot against her? He worked for the king and only or him, Anne Boleyn was nothing to him. So, he just did what he had to do! And if someone else would have been on his place instead, he would have done the same... That's my opinion. Post reply 3 out of 9 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
HeverRose	57. RE: Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall? Jul 10 2011, 5:28 PM EDT Wecome back Naphae!! If it were that straightforward, there would not be any controversy!!! You say: "He got the task from the King to examine her case" What "case" did the King know about that he brought to Cromwell's attention? From what I understand, evidence was gathered in April of 1536 and then presented to the King! I also don;t know of any statement by Henry to Cromwell that initiated the whole thing. Post reply 8 out of 11 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
Naphae	58. RE: Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall? Jul 10 2011, 6:06 PM EDT \| Post edited: Jul 10 2011, 6:21 PM EDT "You say: "He got the task from the King to examine her case" What "case" did the King know about that he brought to Cromwell's attention? From what I understand, evidence was gathered in April of 1536 and then presented to the King! I also don;t know of any statement by Henry to Cromwell that initiated the whole thing. " This rumours were spread through out the whole court. And Cromwell was the one who was told to examine the case. And if someone should think, Cromwell was the one who claimed (not proved) all this - it's wrong. The whole relationship between Anne and Henry wasn't his business. He was statesman and nothing more than that. And Henry heard of this rumours by other people not by Cromwell and so he turned to Crom and told him to examine the case! That was what I meant, by saying "He got the task". ;) And if I got your post wrong , forgive me... it's late and I am tired. P.S. And thank you for the welcome!! Post reply 2 out of 8 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
HeverRose	59. RE: Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall? Jul 10 2011, 7:09 PM EDT \| Post edited: Jul 10 2011, 7:14 PM EDT So is this how it went down: Henry: Mr. Cromwell, I have been hearing these rumours about the queen and the possibility of her engaging with other men. Cromwell: The Queen? Really? Who would have thought!! Henry: I would like you to look into this for me. Cromwell: Sure. henry: And I am seriously considering ridding myself of her, so don't be timid Get to the bottom of it. Cromwell: No problem. I am just teasing you Naphae, and I know how much you respect Cromwell, but this is how you are making it sound !!!! Post reply 10 out of 12 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?

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Discussion: Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall?

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