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Discussion: Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall?
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MsSquirrly |
Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall?
May 11 2011, 11:53 AM EDT
Recently the Anne Boleyn Files asked this question with the following multiple choice answer and I thought it was a pretty good question, what do you think?Do you think the fall of Anne Boleyn was the idea of:- a) Henry VIII who then ordered Cromwell to get rid of Anne b) Thomas Cromwell who convinced Henry that Anne was guilty c) Thomas Cromwell and Henry together d) Other 15 out of 15 found this valuable. Do you?
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Anne Boleyn
Henry VIII
Thomas Cromwell
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HeverRose |
1. RE: Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall?
May 11 2011, 12:49 PM EDT
| Post edited: May 11 2011, 12:54 PM EDT
MsSquirrly, thank you so much for posting this question. It is nice to contemplate these topics and lately, the wiki has been a bit of a desert.Now, the question is rather reductive, since anybody's destiny is a culmination of many different elements. You don't put Anne herself in the choices, for as much as i love her, I have always thought she was her own worst enemy. Given the choices, then I would have to say C, though not together as in collusion, but together as in sharing the responsibility. My gut feeling is that Henry was very obviously tired of her, and was in a place where replacing her was deffinately an option. Cromwell saw this and made it happen. Henry did nothing to save her . Together they provided an environment which Anne could not hope to survive. If either one of them ( Henry or Cromwell) were not committed to Anne's elimination, it would not have happened like that. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
Jes89 |
2. RE: Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall?
May 12 2011, 6:54 AM EDT
I suppose was C, although a lot of factors needs to be count. Anne's temperament, the failure of a son, her low popularity while of her enemies just grew, the birth of princess Elizabeth...so many things to count, but Henry wanted something, cromwell was the man to do it, so, i would say C.
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freya9 |
3. RE: Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall?
May 13 2011, 2:24 PM EDT
Whenever the cause of Anne's fall is discussed it always ends up being a debate on who was more guilty Henry or Cromwell. Long before either the King or the Privy Seal had reasons to want to remove Anne the Conservative/Seymour faction was working to undermine the Queen. Jane was coached to plant doubt in Henry's mind about Anne. We know that she was told to say that the English people would never accept Anne as Queen who knows what else she might have said. Of course this is all speculation but is it so much of a leap to wonder whether Jane might have dropped hints about Anne's flirty nature and encouraged Henry to feel he had been tricked into his marriage. Henry already disapointed in Anne is primed to belive the worst of her.
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HeverRose |
4. RE: Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall?
May 13 2011, 3:58 PM EDT
"Whenever the cause of Anne's fall is discussed it always ends up being a debate on who was more guilty Henry or Cromwell. Long before either the King or the Privy Seal had reasons to want to remove Anne the Conservative/Seymour faction was working to undermine the Queen. Jane was coached to plant doubt in Henry's mind about Anne. We know that she was told to say that the English people would never accept Anne as Queen who knows what else she might have said. Of course this is all speculation but is it so much of a leap to wonder whether Jane might have dropped hints about Anne's flirty nature and encouraged Henry to feel he had been tricked into his marriage. Henry already disapointed in Anne is primed to belive the worst of her. "Of course, and as i said in my post above, there were many factors that contributed to Anne's downfall, including Anne herself, who was not really queen material, given her personality, her lack of training to be queen, the way she stood out from the rest of the people around her, which could only bode ill and make her enemies. But who had the POWER to bring her to her destruction? Only Henry and the forces of a highly corrupt and skewed justice system. That is why it comes down to Henry and Cromwell, because even if everyone else hated her and wanted her gone( which many did, ) to actually destroy her required real power. 1 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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freya9 |
5. RE: Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall?
May 13 2011, 6:36 PM EDT
"But who had the POWER to bring her to her destruction? Only Henry and the forces of a highly corrupt and skewed justice system. That is why it comes down to Henry and Cromwell, because even if everyone else hated her and wanted her gone( which many did, ) to actually destroy her required real power. "If you are looking at the question of who caused Anne's fall simply in terms of who had the power to arrest, question, put on trial and execute Anne and members of her faction then only Henry is guilty. But the question was who first had the idea and was in the main responsible for Anne's downfall. If we believe that Henry was lead into thinking ill of his wife rather than being the instigator then the most likely suspects are Jane and the conservative faction. 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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MsSquirrly |
6. RE: Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall?
May 14 2011, 8:54 AM EDT
The conservative faction (in concert with Chapuys, the Pope & the Spanish) had been working against Anne and her faction for years though. It was only when Cromwell switched from working for Anne to against her that Anne became vulnerable. Cromwell was a most efficient servant of the King and if not in collusion with the King, he most certainly allowed it to happen. The question is, did Henry really believe she had committed adultery? Most of the dates when she was accused of assignations are obviously impossible. Just "imagining" the king's death was considered treason and we know he was pretty paranoid and maybe Cromwell did convince Henry that the Boleyn faction were planning something? Mind you with Jane sitting in the wings ready to take the vacant position of queen at a moment's notice, it must have been too tempting for the fickle Henry. It was an easy solution for an absolute monarch. 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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freya9 |
7. RE: Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall?
May 14 2011, 9:54 AM EDT
Wasn't Anne already vulnerable because of her miscarriages and unpopularity with the English people ? It's true that the conservative faction had been unsuccesfully trying to remove Anne for several years but before she had the favour of the King. Once she lost this her enemies had their opportunity. The timing of Anne's fall had more to do with Henry's growing disapointment with his marriage rather than Cromwell changing sides.
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MsSquirrly |
8. RE: Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall?
May 14 2011, 10:20 AM EDT
I absolutely agree that Anne's miscarriages and Henry's fickle nature played into Anne's vulnerability but Cromwell had become so powerful by this time. Chapuys even said in 1535 "Cromwell is constantly rising in power, so much that he has now more influence with his master than Cardinal [Wolsey] ever had. Nowadays, everything is done at his bidding". And the conservatives knew that if they could get Cromwell on their side, they would get rid of the Boleyns. Chapuys himself reported that there had been a rift between Cromwell and Anne and that he had predicted he would be rid of her in March/April of 1536. Without Cromwell, I doubt the Boleyns would have fallen as suddenly and swiftly.
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HeverRose |
9. RE: Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall?
May 14 2011, 10:42 AM EDT
| Post edited: May 14 2011, 10:51 AM EDT
There is something known as "a perfect storm." It is when a combination of events, each in its own way singular, occur together and in combination create a great destruction. Anne's fall in 1536 was the result of such a "perfect storm." There is no one element that can take 100 percent of the responsibility. Here are the various elements:1. Loss of Henry's love and passion 2. No son 3.Anne's abrasive personality alienated people 4. Hatred of her by the people 5. Her Protestant leanings 6. Rising Seymours and the promotion of Jane as a candidate for Henry. 7. A corrupt and completely skewed justice system ( she was not allowed to have a defense. the verdict was a foregone conclusion.) 8. Cromwell's power to manipulate and control. 9. Henry's complete lack of loyalty to anyone who served him. 10. A culture of death and destruction of anyone who caused trouble or who was in the way.. 11. Henry's fall from his horse which could have caused her miscarriage. 12. Anne's mistreatment of Mary which caused her bad karma. (OK this might sound a bit weird but I believe in karma!) You start adding all this up and it is a phenomenal series of circumstances and events. There was just no surviving this. She was doomed. 3 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you? |
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MsSquirrly |
10. RE: Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall?
May 14 2011, 10:58 AM EDT
Not just Karma....Mary herself even wrote to Cromwell mentioning how Lady Kingston had visited her and informed her on Anne Boleyn's stay in the tower both before and after her death. Some of Mary's sympathizers were even on the Jury of the 5 men. So I would add the conservative faction working behind the scenes on this as well. However, without Cromwell....the most powerful man in the kingdom behind the coup against the Boleyns, I believe it would have taken much longer and the Boleyns may have been able to fight back. It was the swiftness of the proceedings which caught them totally off guard. That and Henry's tacit approval. So I am still going with C.
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HeverRose |
11. RE: Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall?
May 14 2011, 11:06 AM EDT
| Post edited: May 14 2011, 11:07 AM EDT
"Not just Karma....Mary herself even wrote to Cromwell mentioning how Lady Kingston had visited her and informed her on Anne Boleyn's stay in the tower both before and after her death. Some of Mary's sympathizers were even on the Jury of the 5 men. So I would add the conservative faction working behind the scenes on this as well. However, without Cromwell....the most powerful man in the kingdom behind the coup against the Boleyns, I believe it would have taken much longer and the Boleyns may have been able to fight back. It was the swiftness of the proceedings which caught them totally off guard. That and Henry's tacit approval. So I am still going with C."I agree. all these factors played their part, like a well written play, but the responsibility for her actual DEATH ( as opposed to just banishing her or "divorcing " her, or otherwise getting rid of her) lay at the door of Cromwell and Henry. Cromwell for building the case and Henry for going along with it. They had the power of life and death. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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MsSquirrly |
12. RE: Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall?
May 14 2011, 11:24 AM EDT
| Post edited: May 14 2011, 11:28 AM EDT
"I agree. all these factors played their part, like a well written play, but the responsibility for her actual DEATH ( as opposed to just banishing her or "divorcing " her, or otherwise getting rid of her) lay at the door of Cromwell and Henry. Cromwell for building the case and Henry for going along with it. They had the power of life and death. "ah I see what you are saying.... the question was worded ...whose idea was Anne's FALL....not her death. The idea of her fall had been there since she replaced all other women in Henry's life and became his obsession. Once everyone knew she had failed him by not living up to her promises...she was easy pickings. She had lost her protection. Losing that last baby ...as Chapuys put it, was losing her saviour. She had no way but down after that. Ironic really, since all the dead boy babies were also the undoing of Henry's marriage to Katherine of Aragon. But death? Chapuys , one of her bitterest enemies, also said quite candidly she had been 'condemned on the presumption and not evidence, without any witnesses or valid confession'. 3 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you? |
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HeverRose |
13. RE: Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall?
May 14 2011, 11:42 AM EDT
| Post edited: May 14 2011, 11:50 AM EDT
Fall and Death are pretty much the same thing in that world. What else could really have been done with her? In today's world she would have gotten a nice fat divorce settlement and gone on to write a tell all book. But back then? Who fell and lived to tell their grandchildren about it? Nobody. So yes, I assumed that fall and death are one and the same. Also ( just added this) she fell so darn fast that there was no "fall" before her death to speak of. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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MsSquirrly |
14. RE: Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall?
May 14 2011, 6:33 PM EDT
"Fall and Death are pretty much the same thing in that world. What else could really have been done with her? In today's world she would have gotten a nice fat divorce settlement and gone on to write a tell all book. But back then? Who fell and lived to tell their grandchildren about it? Nobody.well fall and death did not have to be the same thing. In fact Anne's death sentence was unprecedented. Check out this page : http://tudorswiki.sho.com/page/TRIAL+of+Anne+Boleyn to see what happened to other royal ladies who were guilty of treasonous acts. She could have been banished after her marriage was annulled similar to what happened to Katherine. However, she had no foreign power behind her and Henry wanted her gone. He didn't want another stretch of time with an ex wife in the background. Pointing to Henry again as being behind the idea. 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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freya9 |
15. RE: Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall?
May 15 2011, 5:27 AM EDT
Although I agree that Cromwell was a powerful man his power was not, as it seems to being discussed here, the power of a modern day politican or leader. Like the rest of the Court his influence and position rested soley on the good will of the King. Henry had made enquries in 1535 about the possibility of divorcing Anne which was before Cromwell had fallen out with her. The conservative faction contained men who were as ruthless and intellegent as Cromwell they just had to wait for the right time (as many others did). MsSquirrly has said that she believes Cromwell was responsible because of the 'swift and sudden' nature of the Boleyn faction's fall indicating that he was competent and well organiazed. It seems strange then that someone so well organized would present a case that had several glaring errors. If Cromwell had taken over the conspiracy would he have allowed such mistakes? If Henry had not already made up his mind to condem Anne wouldn't he have noticed this?
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HeverRose |
16. RE: Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall?
May 15 2011, 3:18 PM EDT
| Post edited: May 15 2011, 3:27 PM EDT
We always need to remember that we cannot judge the Tudor age through the consicousness of our modern day life. This was a pre Enlightenment, pre Romantic, pre Human Rights age. Discrepencies with dates , which in our legal system would discredit an argument, probably did not matter much. There was no jury selection designed to insure an impartial jury. . There was no defense counsel for the one on trial. What were they thinking of, we ask? One cultural phenomenon that separates modern society from early modern society is a more developed sense of Self. Things we take for granted today : a level of privacy, a right to pursue our own happiness, a respect for the life and dignity of others as well as ourseves did not really come into being the way we are used to them now, until several centuries after the Tudors. This was still an age of bear baiting, of gruesome public executions, and of God's will. People didn't think like we do. I don't want to say these people had less of a consiousness than we have; what they had was a different consciousness than we do today. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
LadyTudorsFan |
17. RE: Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall?
May 15 2011, 5:27 PM EDT
"Although I agree that Cromwell was a powerful man his power was not, as it seems to being discussed here, the power of a modern day politican or leader. Like the rest of the Court his influence and position rested soley on the good will of the King. Henry had made enquries in 1535 about the possibility of divorcing Anne which was before Cromwell had fallen out with her. The conservative faction contained men who were as ruthless and intellegent as Cromwell they just had to wait for the right time (as many others did). MsSquirrly has said that she believes Cromwell was responsible because of the 'swift and sudden' nature of the Boleyn faction's fall indicating that he was competent and well organiazed. It seems strange then that someone so well organized would present a case that had several glaring errors. If Cromwell had taken over the conspiracy would he have allowed such mistakes? If Henry had not already made up his mind to condem Anne wouldn't he have noticed this?"It is true that the accusations didn't match up with the dates given in the evidence, i.e. dates when she was allegedly supposed to have met one of the five men accused. However, GW Bernard argued recently that too much emphasis is placed on the inaccuracy of the dates - it overlooks the fact that it was actually stated on the document that the dates were only rough estimations. They had the accusations, but someone stil had to put in place a procedure to present these accusations for trial. If Anne had been framed on purpose, GW Bernard argues that the dates would have actually have been more accurate and the tracks would have been covered. In response to the main question, I would say "a" - ultimately, the King decided what happened. Anne was vulnerable because her rise was dependent on his love for her, but this then dramatically changed to hate. 3 out of 5 found this valuable. Do you? |
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HeverRose |
18. RE: Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall?
May 16 2011, 2:05 PM EDT
I think the term "frame" is far too sophisticated a word or notion for what happened to Anne. It assumes a criminal justice system where hard evidence matters, ( i.e. fingerprints, personal items left at the scene etc.) and it also assumes a a certain amount of premeditation. I don't think either was the case with Anne. Hard evidence was not that important; testimony by dubious 'witnesses' counted for a lot more. Also, I don't think the case was "planned" beforehand. From what i know, certain accusations came to light and then Cromwell took that and ran with it.
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MickiSuzanne |
19. RE: Who do you think was responsible for Anne Boleyn's fall?
May 16 2011, 2:18 PM EDT
Anne turned into an arrogant control freak and lost the king's love. If I remember correctly, Henry already had his eye on Queen 3. "A" - Henry called the shots and had Cromwell do his dirty work.
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