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Location: George Boleyn - Historical Profile
Discussion: Leave George alone
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Conyle |
20. RE: Leave George alone
Feb 23 2010, 6:05 PM EST
"I don't post on the other sites but I have read them with dawning horror. It's rather like watching a car crash. Yes they say George deserved to die because he was a vile rapist. There are others, including the belief that Anne's last miscarriage was his 'demon child'. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.What started your interest in George Boleyn? Are you particularly passionate about him as a person? Or did you just see his portrayal on the Tudors and other mediums (coughGregorycough) as particularly skewed and it got to you? Do you find this valuable? |
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Reggie19 |
21. RE: Leave George alone
Feb 23 2010, 6:12 PM EST
| Post edited: Feb 23 2010, 6:15 PM EST
Georgedeservesbetter: Now i understand perfectly when you're coming from hun, i thought you were originally a lurker on this site (like i was at one time before finally registering), and that you'd noticed some comments being made regarding George. Personally i find most threads constructed here as a means to discuss him, normally discuss the man himself, and critique the character portrayal. There's not a single one of us here that believes George was any of those things. While i know he was neither homosexual, nor a rapist for that matter, there is still very little i do know about him, so perhaps you could teach me more? I have started to take an interest in the men who were executed along with Anne Boleyn in 1536, in particular Smeaton and Norris, maybe you can provide me with some insight into good ol' George? This place isn't like any of those IMDB boards, nor YT for that matter. Comments i've read on either disgust me, and when someone actually raises a historical point they get spammed for it. It seems people will say anything as long as it serves the purpose of insulting someone else; what a sad notion.All in all, its wonderful to have a George Boleyn fan here, and welcome to the site ;D 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Georgedeservesbetter |
22. RE: Leave George alone
Feb 23 2010, 6:19 PM EST
"What started your interest in George Boleyn? Are you particularly passionate about him as a person? Or did you just see his portrayal on the Tudors and other mediums (coughGregorycough) as particularly skewed and it got to you?"I have been really interested in him for about three years. I read books by Ives, Starkey and so on and then decided to read into source material. I began with Letters and Papers of Henry VIII and then the Calender of State Papers (Spanish). They pointed me towards the Lisle Letters which have a lot of info Re George. There is also a biography of George and Henry Howard by a man called Edmond Bapst which I bought. Unfortunately it is in archaic French and I don't speak French. I spent about three months interpreting it which was a nightmare! The more I read the more fascinated I became and the more I realised what an extroadinary young man he was. He is worth far more than people think. He also had an enormous influence over the religious changes of the sixteenth century which I think have been unfairly overlooked. He died so tragically and he deserves so mush more than the fictional abuse he suffers from which has no basis in fact. In particular I love reading his letters which are filled with warmth and humour. He was proud and probably a womaniser i.e. no wide-eyed innocent, but my God he didn't deserve to die. 3 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Reggie19 |
23. RE: Leave George alone
Feb 23 2010, 6:32 PM EST
| Post edited: Feb 23 2010, 6:33 PM EST
"There is also a biography of George and Henry Howard by a man called Edmond Bapst which I bought. Unfortunately it is in archaic French and I don't speak French. I spent about three months interpreting it which was a nightmare! "OK, i love Thomas Wyatt, i can't speak French, and i certainly wouldn't go to the lengths you've clearly gone to discover more. Now i can COMPLETELY understand your vehemence in regards to some of the mindless drones who take everything they see on TV as gospel, and in particular those who have called George all the names under the sun without and regard to the man himself. As Wyatt himself said "For your wit alone, every men would bemoan, and since it is so, many still cry aloud, it is a great loss that you are dead and gone", and what a great loss it was indeed. Do you find this valuable? |
tudorcrazy |
24. RE: Leave George alone
Feb 23 2010, 7:10 PM EST
| Post edited: Feb 24 2010, 9:56 AM EST
I also feel contrite. I apologise, as I had no idea you were interested in George B,as an historical figure. Absolutely he was railroaded in a kangaroo court, and executed strictly for his being Anne's brother. I do think Lady Rochford was a willing accomplice to his verdict. They had a very unhappy marriage. The question here is why? Besides the fact that it was arranged, you don't hear about George being in love with someone else, or having any long term relationships. Also, they were childless. Another mystery. It is entirely possible we know nothing about him except his "public" image of a statesman, and part of the court.We know so very little. It is possible he was homosexual, but never acted on it . Food for thought. Even homosexuals sleep with women if they have to. 0 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Conyle |
25. RE: Leave George alone
Feb 23 2010, 7:27 PM EST
"Maybe he was bi? Where did the rumor come from? Do you find this valuable? |
MsSquirrly |
26. RE: Leave George alone
Feb 23 2010, 7:47 PM EST
| Post edited: Feb 23 2010, 7:59 PM EST
"Maybe he was bi? Where did the rumor come from?"As far as I know, it came from Retha Warnicke's book about Anne Boleyn. I read it and to be honest, I don't believe she had any sources to back this up. She took huge leaps of speculation based on that poem by Cavendish which is quoted on the historical profile at the top of this page. He had a reputation as a womanizer so it would be strange if a man was a closet gay to be called that. Bi? Who knows. Since what people do behind closed doors isn't recorded then it really is like the tabloid press who just make things up. Really I don't think his sexual orientation demonizes him as much as the rape scene did since that is all about violently forcing yourself on another person and not sex at all. I understand why the show used the rape scene because they were trying to show the danger of a woman scorned but it really does blacken George's name and makes me very uncomfortable. Do you find this valuable? |
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Reggie19 |
27. RE: Leave George alone
Feb 23 2010, 7:48 PM EST
| Post edited: Feb 23 2010, 7:50 PM EST
"Maybe he was bi? Where did the rumor come from?"From Retha Warnicke twenty years ago... a bit late if you ask me, lol! EDIT: Ms S got there before me, and with a hell of a lot more than i said, lol! Do you find this valuable? |
Elliemental |
28. RE: Leave George alone
Feb 23 2010, 7:50 PM EST
"Wow, ok lets take a step back. At least it's got you talking about poor old George.To be fair to us here, as a Boleyn, George is frequently discussed here on the wiki. We would normally be talking about him and his family anyway. If it seems that people are jumping on you here, its because your original post was a tad aggressive. Hence my original reply. Why don't you hang around here for a while, get to know the place and the posters. You'll soon see that if there is an unfortunate soul who takes the show at face value, they are soon dis-abused of such notions. We're a friendly enough, and oft times quite intelligent bunch here. 1 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Conyle |
29. RE: Leave George alone
Feb 23 2010, 7:51 PM EST
| Post edited: Feb 23 2010, 7:53 PM EST
"As far as I know, it came from Retha Warnicke's book about Anne Boleyn. I read it and to be honest, I don't believe she had any sources to back this up. She took huge leaps of speculation based on that poem by Cavendish which is quoted on the historical profile at the top of this page. He had a reputation as a womanizer so it would be strange if a man was a closet gay to be called that. Bi? Who knows. Since what people do behind closed doors isn't recorded then it really is like the tabloid press who just make things up. Really I don't think his sexual orientation demonizes him as much as the rap scene did since that is all about violently forcing yourself on another person and not sex at all. I understand why the show used the rape scene because they were trying to show a the danger of a woman scorned but it really does blacken George's name and makes me very uncomfortable."Speculation that he may have been gay aren't demonizing at all, just probably inaccurate, I'd say. So the rumor came from Warnicke, eh? That's understandable, I haven't read her book, but I've heard her theories on Anne. She certainly stands alone in the field, eh? Do you find this valuable? |
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MsSquirrly |
30. RE: Leave George alone
Feb 23 2010, 7:54 PM EST
"Speculation that he may have been gay aren't demonizing at all, just probably inaccurate, I'd say. So the rumor came from Warcnicke, eh? That's understandable, I haven't read her book, but I've heard her theories on Anne. She certainly stands alone in the field, eh?"yes and many historians went head to head with her when her book came out including both G.W. Bernard and Eric Ives. After Phillipa Gregory's work of fiction came out which was obviously based on her book. she actually distanced herself from it publicly. Do you find this valuable? |
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Elliemental |
31. RE: Leave George alone
Feb 23 2010, 7:54 PM EST
Everyone was gay, bi, lesbian and transgender according to Warnicke and her strange feminist re-interpretation of everything. Its an interesting view, but one lacking in evidence.
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Reggie19 |
32. RE: Leave George alone
Feb 23 2010, 7:56 PM EST
"Speculation that he may have been gay aren't demonizing at all, just probably inaccurate, I'd say."Ya, i agree, what harm can a person's sexual orientation do to another, even back then? Nowhere near as bad as him being known as a rapist *shiver*... Do you find this valuable? |
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MsSquirrly |
33. RE: Leave George alone
Feb 23 2010, 8:01 PM EST
"Ya, i agree, what harm can a person's sexual orientation do to another, even back then? Nowhere near as bad as him being known as a rapist *shiver*..."well back then it was very bad because they believed you went to hell plus the buggery act meant you could be executed for it. And interestingly Cromwell didn't add this charge to the other charges however I can understand that this might dilute his charge of incest. Still it would really blacken his name more in tudor terms. Do you find this valuable? |
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Elliemental |
34. RE: Leave George alone
Feb 23 2010, 8:01 PM EST
Once I'm done with Team Wolsey/Neil, Team Boleyn/Delaney may just well be back on......
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Reggie19 |
35. RE: Leave George alone
Feb 23 2010, 8:04 PM EST
"well back then it was very bad because they believed you went to hell plus the buggery act meant you could be executed for it. And interestingly Cromwell didn't add this charge to the other charges however I can understand that this might dilute his charge of incest. Still it would really blacken his name more in tudor terms."My point was that, unlike rape, it didn't cause physical harm, or any form of subordination over another, to anyone. I know how the medieval mindset considered homosexuality, the Buggery Act speaks volumes for that. That's what i meant when i agreed it wasn't half as damning as George being portrayed as a rapist, which was perhaps more acceptable back then than homosexuality was. Do you find this valuable? |
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Reggie19 |
36. RE: Leave George alone
Feb 23 2010, 8:05 PM EST
"Once I'm done with Team Wolsey/Neil, Team Boleyn/Delaney may just well be back on......"Oh God, Ellie stop, as if my desire to start a Team Smeaton/ Alpay isn't bad enough. I've been watching so many of David's movies lately, that i think i'm developing a teeny obsession, lol! Do you find this valuable? |
sirskydog |
37. RE: Leave George alone
Feb 23 2010, 9:25 PM EST
what are you all sayin.. The Tudors isnt real ???but its on TV! say it isnt so ! and whats next.. that Tommie Talis really didnt love Compton afterall? That Edith wasnt really a meathead? That Brian and Stewie really dont talk? its a TV series. it has to be true! Do you find this valuable? |
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Georgedeservesbetter |
38. RE: Leave George alone
Feb 24 2010, 3:49 AM EST
Warnicke came up with her theory twenty years ago based on no evidence whatsoever. Yes it is possible that George was homo or bi sexual, because anything is possible. To come up with a theory based solely on the fact that it is impossible to prove a negative isn't really a theory at all. Someone could suggest that Winston Churchill or John F Kennedy were bisexual simply because there is no way of proving they weren't. But if someone made any such suggestion there would, quite rightly, be a public outcry. So why did Warnicke think it was ok to do so just because George died nearly five-hundred years age. It smacks of double standards.A historians job is to come up with a theory based on the available evidence, not the other way around, because anyone can make something up. The point here, as someone said above, is that we cannot look at the sixteenth century with our twenty-first century morality. Homosexuality in the sixteenth century was an insult to God. The theories relating to him would have George Boleyn spinning in his grave. My point is that he doesn't deserve that, particularly when there is no evidence to suggest he was anything other than hetrosexual. Warnicke, and now Weir, may not care about that, but what does that say about us? Do you find this valuable? |
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Georgedeservesbetter |
39. RE: Leave George alone
Feb 24 2010, 3:55 AM EST
By the way, I know I'm anal (pardon ther pun) when it comes to George. I know I should get out more. Being so passionate about someone who died nearly five-hundred years ago really does take necrophilia to a whole new level, but there you are!
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