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Discussion: "The most beautiful among the learned..."
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Brooke9/7 |
"The most beautiful among the learned..."
Feb 9 2010, 3:46 PM EST
"The most beautiful among the learned and the most learned among the beautiful." (from a wiki article). This is what contemporary admirers said about Francis I's mistress, Anne de Pisseleu d'Heilly (1508-1580). She was honored by the court and loved by the king, she had a great deal of unofficial influence, helped elevate her friends and family, enjoyed a reputation as being lovely, learned, witty, and supportive of the Protestant reformation in France, yet was of course naturally ambitious and well-schooled in the arts of courtly intrigue. Do you think that if Anne Boleyn had been able to consent to become the king's mistress, would she have been an effective unofficial consort like le duchesse? Would she have been like Anne de Pisseleu, duchesse d'Etampes, highly regarded official mistress with no claims to the succession for any heirs, but involved in the affairs of ruling the kingdom? The fact that AB demanded the traditional legitimate consort role does attest to Anne’s honour and care for her maidenly virtue. *Curtseys low and slow* Then again, although he's no Northumberland duke, Lady Blount was later married to a wealthy nobleman. But maybe Henry did not want any other illegitimate boys running around fighting eachother for the throne. But anyhow... After all, it was a good situation for Francis's son Henry II’s ambitious official mistress - Diane de Poitiers, much older than her paramour but a contemporary of Anne Boleyn (born 1499). Like many powerful mistresses of old, Diane de P lived as a queen in all but name and eventually owned more estates and lands than almost anyone in France. Both her and Anne, duchesse d'Etampes retired quietly after the deaths of their kings. Interesting? Or am I (in the words of beardedlady) alone, adrift on this history geek island? Do you find this valuable? |
freya9 |
1. RE: "The most beautiful among the learned..."
Feb 9 2010, 4:16 PM EST
I have often wondered this myself. Anne Boleyn may have been better off in the long run if she had agreed to become the King's official mistress. If so their relationship would have been consumated when they were both younger and they wouldn't have had the stress the annulment produced. This could have tipped the balance for them to produce healthy male children. If Henry married Anne once he was widowed the children would be made legitimate. Or he could have done something similiar to what he did with Mary & Elizabeth; making a law that gave them a claim to the throne whilst still upholding their illegitimate status. Plus I think Anne enjoyed the dominant 'mistress' role rather than the submissive wife she was supposed to change into after marriage.
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juliana-angela |
2. RE: "The most beautiful among the learned..."
Feb 9 2010, 4:33 PM EST
Yes, it is very interesting how this rather odd tradition of the 'official mistress', or 'maitresse en titre' grew up in France. These ladies often wielding more power than the queen.The Duchess d'Etampes seems to have been the first of them, although Agnes Sorel, mistress of Charles V11 was very influential until her death in 1450. The three kings between Charles and Francis has no such mistresses, though. Later mistress such as Madame de Montespan and Madame de Pompadour continued in the mould of the Duchesse. English kings never really went down that route, so I doubt whether Anne Boleyn would have been that influential if she had not become queen. Although there were some politically-inclined English royal mistress such as Alice Perrers (Edward 111) and Barbara Castlemaine (Charles 11), they did not have the power and prestige of their French counterparts. Do you find this valuable? |
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freya9 |
3. RE: "The most beautiful among the learned..."
Feb 9 2010, 4:59 PM EST
Although it true that english royal mistresses have not been as influential as their french counterparts I think that someone like Anne could have well been the exception. She was able to convince Henry to wait for several years before they had sex, make her a marquis, leave his wife, break from Rome and ennoble her family. Whether her influence would have lasted as long is open to debate.
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Brooke9/7 |
4. RE: "The most beautiful among the learned..."
Feb 9 2010, 5:08 PM EST
Thank you, yes as you point out, it was a precarious posiiton especially after the king dies - out you go. Anne B may not have wanted to gamble on the king's promise of security as Official Mistress. Like many others have also mentioned on these threads, she probably didn't have a choice but to play the card (her honor) she had. It seems that these mistresses were already married anyway; at least in the case of Diane de Poitiers - she didn't risking her livlihood or future marriage prospects by becoming Henri II's mistress. So fascinating, thank you freya9 & juliana-angela!
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juliana-angela |
5. RE: "The most beautiful among the learned..."
Feb 11 2010, 3:29 PM EST
"Thank you, yes as you point out, it was a precarious posiiton especially after the king dies - out you go. Anne B may not have wanted to gamble on the king's promise of security as Official Mistress. Like many others have also mentioned on these threads, she probably didn't have a choice but to play the card (her honor) she had. It seems that these mistresses were already married anyway; at least in the case of Diane de Poitiers - she didn't risking her livlihood or future marriage prospects by becoming Henri II's mistress. So fascinating, thank you freya9 & juliana-angela!"Yes, most of these ladies seem to have been married to husbands willing to turn a blind eye for the sake of the honours and lands that their wives obtained for their 'services'... Probably sensible from the King's point of view as well - it stopped the mistress from any thoughts of marriage. Not that most kings would have considered that anyway - even those whose wives died generally married for another suitable alliance or remained widowers. The exception was Louis X1V, who secretly married Madame de Maintenon. but never made her queen. Do you find this valuable? |
firstmarie |
6. RE: "The most beautiful among the learned..."
Feb 15 2010, 11:50 AM EST
"Thank you, yes as you point out, it was a precarious posiiton especially after the king dies - out you go. Anne B may not have wanted to gamble on the king's promise of security as Official Mistress. Like many others have also mentioned on these threads, she probably didn't have a choice but to play the card (her honor) she had. It seems that these mistresses were already married anyway; at least in the case of Diane de Poitiers - she didn't risking her livlihood or future marriage prospects by becoming Henri II's mistress. So fascinating, thank you freya9 & juliana-angela!"It is hard to compare the situation of Anne and Henry with Diane de Poitiers and Henri II. Diane was a young married women who, as legend has it, befriended little Henri when he and his brother were being sent as hostages for his father's ransom after Pavia, giving him a kiss before he was rowed across the river to Spain. He never forgot that. After his was repatriated, he and his brother both resented their father and were sent to live with Diane and her husband Signeur de Breze at Anet. It was after her husband died that Diane became Henri's mistress. She never played the role of the tantalizing lover, and was always Henri's best friend and advisor, and it was she who encouraged Henri to finally produce children with Queen Catherine di Medici. I don't think that Henry VIII had those kind of deep feelings for anyone. Not even the powerful Guise, the crafty Catherine nor Constable Montmorency could displace Diane until Henri was on his deathbed, when Catherine and the Guise finally shut her out. Henry VIII was much more easily manipulated, by the Boleyns and later, against them. I think Anne played the best hand she was dealt. Do you find this valuable? |
