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Nofretete |
60. RE: What has he done wrong?
Feb 2 2010, 3:10 AM EST
I really have a personal beef with this 'just doing what was commanded' reasoning, because people do have a mind of their own and can think for themselves and know when something is morally wrong. "Just following orders" has been used as an excuse for many war crimes in the past and today. But at least today most people can choose not to join an army and avoid getting into a situation of personal conflict like what we are talking about here. A 16th century noble did not have the choice to tell his king that he doesn't like this soldiering business and that he'd like to be a ambassador better. So could he please get that other assignment? I agree that on the show it was mostly about personal loyalty to Henry for Brandon. I'm sure he must feel very obligated to Henry on a personal level, even above the loyalty he would owe him as his King. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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jrmslady09 |
61. RE: What has he done wrong?
Feb 2 2010, 3:46 AM EST
You said it right there!! The truth and the whole truth!!
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Reggie19 |
62. RE: What has he done wrong?
Feb 2 2010, 4:56 AM EST
"Have we missed something which is rather central to this character? He is a soldier. Soldiers do a job which is not pleasant. Their King/Queen/President/Prime minister calls them to do something for the security of their country ....they do it. They cannot refuse. If soldiers decided to pick and choose which conflicts they want to get involved in, it would really defeat their purpose. Besides to most of them, their loyalty to their country (and the Leader of that Country) is foremost ."Well done MsS, you completely nailed it! Do you find this valuable? |
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Anne'sCurls |
63. RE: What has he done wrong?
Feb 2 2010, 3:08 PM EST
If knowing what is right and wrong means she is hormonal then I guess being hormonal is a bad thing. The original question was what has he done wrong to turn Catherine off and I have answered the question extensively. I assume her disdain towards him will continue to grow as she continues ot see his lack of character and willingness to kill.
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Nofretete |
64. RE: What has he done wrong?
Feb 2 2010, 3:18 PM EST
"If knowing what is right and wrong means she is hormonal then I guess being hormonal is a bad thing. The original question was what has he done wrong to turn Catherine off and I have answered the question extensively. I assume her disdain towards him will continue to grow as she continues ot see his lack of character and willingness to kill. "I get the feeling from you you think you would be a Thomas More in that situation and rather have your head cut off. Would you? Do you find this valuable? |
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henry's7thwife |
65. RE: What has he done wrong?
Feb 2 2010, 3:26 PM EST
"If knowing what is right and wrong means she is hormonal then I guess being hormonal is a bad thing. The original question was what has he done wrong to turn Catherine off and I have answered the question extensively. I assume her disdain towards him will continue to grow as she continues ot see his lack of character and willingness to kill. "Yes, you have answered it. The point that I and others are trying to make here is that she was being unreasonable in doing so. I think that is clear enough too. My reason for citing hormones are that perhaps, if she was not pregnant, she would have seen more clearly that Brandon had no choice and he was only saving his own life. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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virhe |
66. RE: What has he done wrong?
Jun 8 2010, 11:18 AM EDT
So here we have a good foundation to answer the original question (cheating, the pilgrimage) and also a lot of people saying that Catherine was wrong to detach from her husband because of the said things. Then again, marriage isn't really about being right or wrong, is it? Some questions: is Brigitte a real life character? Was the rough patch between Brandon and Catherine also historically accurate? Hirst said he made up most of what we've seen of Brandon. Do you find this valuable? |
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Anne'sCurls |
67. RE: What has he done wrong?
Jun 8 2010, 5:24 PM EDT
"I get the feeling from you you think you would be a Thomas More in that situation and rather have your head cut off. Would you?"Back in 1999, there was a horrible school shooting in Colorado USA. One of the girls who was killed was shot because she said she believed in God. I would like to think that I would be like her or the countless others throughout history who did the right thing in the face of great danger, but until you are put in that situation you can never for sure say if you would be a hero or a coward. I give Catherine Brandon major props for not condoing her husbands bad deeds. 1 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you? |
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vecadrian |
68. RE: What has he done wrong?
Jun 8 2010, 6:02 PM EDT
| Post edited: Jun 8 2010, 6:04 PM EDT
Catherine's behavior was definitely very insensitive--Charles hated what he did, and he developed post traumatic stress disorder in the aftermath, was emotionally scarred and lost both his friendship with Henry and then his wife as well. I personally cannot stand Thomas More--he was terribly self-righteous and wanted martyrdom for an extremely small difference in religion, and had no problems with plunging his family into dire poverty as a result. Certainly Charles shouldn't have risked the lives of Catherine and Edward his son by refusing. I, personally, wouldn't kill anyone regardless of who told me to, but I'm not sure how that can be extended to this--I would have nothing to do with this court... Anyway, I imagine that the French girl is a stand-in since the actress for Katherine, estranged or not, was no longer available. And of course it was historically the duke of Norfolk who had to deal with killing the rebels, so I doubt Catherine would have hated Charles for it. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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sweetsister |
69. RE: What has he done wrong?
Jun 8 2010, 6:46 PM EDT
| Post edited: Jun 8 2010, 7:05 PM EDT
I have always been a fan of Charles, especially early on when he was so much fun (but then he was able to be more open around the king. I think that Catherine is wrong for "leaving" him based on what happened during the pilgrimage of grace, in that day and age he had to obey the king and I feel he was tortured enough by his own conscious without having his wife throw it in his face. I do think Charles was wrong in conspiring with the Seymour's but after Cromwell made a point of stating Charles did not "execute enough rebels" I can see Charles anger towards him. In the end I think that the producers of the show are trying to show how much Charles gave up to stay loyal to the king, his morals, his wife etc
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Anne'sCurls |
70. RE: What has he done wrong?
Jun 8 2010, 8:13 PM EDT
So you didnt notice that Catherine stayed with her husband after his murdering children during the pilgrimage of grace? She left him after she recognized what a sick bastard he was when he was rejoicing with the Seymours the death of Cromwell, that was the last straw for her and that is why she is not in season 4.
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sweetsister |
71. RE: What has he done wrong?
Jun 8 2010, 8:22 PM EDT
"So you didnt notice that Catherine stayed with her husband after his murdering children during the pilgrimage of grace? She left him after she recognized what a sick bastard he was when he was rejoicing with the Seymours the death of Cromwell, that was the last straw for her and that is why she is not in season 4. "I think she left him in spirit, emotionaly, before she left him physically. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Verlah |
72. RE: What has he done wrong?
Jun 12 2010, 3:47 PM EDT
"So you didnt notice that Catherine stayed with her husband after his murdering children during the pilgrimage of grace? She left him after she recognized what a sick bastard he was when he was rejoicing with the Seymours the death of Cromwell, that was the last straw for her and that is why she is not in season 4. "Well, getting rid of Cromwell like they did was certainly not a nice way but Cromwell himself had never been scrupulous in doing away with the people he had regarded as his enemies or as just being in his way... Do you find this valuable? |
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virhe |
73. RE: What has he done wrong?
Jun 17 2010, 4:08 AM EDT
"Well, getting rid of Cromwell like they did was certainly not a nice way but Cromwell himself had never been scrupulous in doing away with the people he had regarded as his enemies or as just being in his way..."Charles' fall from the nice careless guy dates all the way back to the first season when he was pretty happy to get rid of Wolsey. He was overjoyed about getting rid of Cromwell and they celebrated his demise. I think that's when Catherine realized he wasn't the man she married. She was going to cope with the pilgrimage ordeal, but Brandon's plotting against Cromwell (and others before and after him) was the last straw. Do you find this valuable? |
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Verlah |
74. RE: What has he done wrong?
Jun 18 2010, 1:02 PM EDT
"Charles' fall from the nice careless guy dates all the way back to the first season when he was pretty happy to get rid of Wolsey. He was overjoyed about getting rid of Cromwell and they celebrated his demise. I think that's when Catherine realized he wasn't the man she married. She was going to cope with the pilgrimage ordeal, but Brandon's plotting against Cromwell (and others before and after him) was the last straw."I would rather say that Charles did not really change when comparing Season 1 to Season 3. He was still the same person. I think the problem was the way Catherine saw him. She just liked SOME of his traits but could not cope with the rest. As soon as he did not fit in she was upset with him. She was unrealistic about his personality. She did not marry Charles but an illusion. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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virhe |
75. RE: What has he done wrong?
Jun 18 2010, 3:40 PM EDT
| Post edited: Jun 18 2010, 3:42 PM EDT
I think Brandon changed a lot looking at his personality and ambitions from season 1 to season 3-4. In the first season he, like Henry, was young and all about chasing tail and politics wasn't really his thing. Towards the end of the first season and so forth, he finds himself feeling empathy for (Henry's) Catherine and starts to realize that some things are wrong in the court. I didn't find him particularly sympathetic in the first season, but later on I feel he has stepped up as a character. While he's not by far my favorite character, I think there has been a positive change in him through out the series.I did, however, find it odd that at first he felt terribly guilty over the pilgrimage, but then turned around and said he has a clear conscience in regard to his actions. Well, the hallucinations proved his words wrong but I wonder if his declaration stems from the contemporary expectation that the man is always right, even though he's wrong. Anyway: he has changed. Do you find this valuable? |
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Verlah |
76. RE: What has he done wrong?
Jun 20 2010, 10:29 AM EDT
"I think Brandon changed a lot looking at his personality and ambitions from season 1 to season 3-4. In the first season he, like Henry, was young and all about chasing tail and politics wasn't really his thing. Towards the end of the first season and so forth, he finds himself feeling empathy for (Henry's) Catherine and starts to realize that some things are wrong in the court. I didn't find him particularly sympathetic in the first season, but later on I feel he has stepped up as a character. While he's not by far my favorite character, I think there has been a positive change in him through out the series.To some extent I would agree with you that he changed because of his empathy for Henry's Catherine but still I have the impression that he is the same kind of person as in Season 1. I have always liked his character so this might be a reason why I cannot totally agree with the way you see him or his change. Anyway, no matter in which Season, he always wanted to please Henry and to do what Henry told him. You are right, he still felt guilty of what he had done to the pilgrims no matter what he had said before. I believe his words were just an attempt to salve his conscience. On the other hand, this was the way the matter was regarded officially. The pilgrimage was regarded as high treason against Henry, and the rebellion had to be put down. Charles just did what he had been told to do by his sovereign. That's why I am rather surprised he had a bad conscience at all. This might have been because he still was a Catholic in his heart. Do you find this valuable? |
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virhe |
77. RE: What has he done wrong?
Jun 20 2010, 11:34 AM EDT
"Charles just did what he had been told to do by his sovereign. That's why I am rather surprised he had a bad conscience at all. This might have been because he still was a Catholic in his heart."Either that (which is a valid point) or it's because he wouldn't be a relatable character of a TV show if he didn't feel guilty. The Tudors does a pretty good job showing how for example women were treated back then, but if they were truly authentic in their portrayal of the era, people wouldn't watch the show. Would Brandon be as beloved a character if he wasn't played by a good looking man? We can never know exactly what happened at the time these things happened. Still, we watch the show and we judge the characters and their moral based on our point of view, which is not at all the one of the people back then. This thread contemplates is Catherine just in leaving Charles, but forgets that the happy marriage of today is not the same as a happy marriage back then. Catherine was Brandon's ward: the position of a ward was at times similar to being a hostage. Maybe not in their case, but it is nonetheless the premise of their relationship. How do we even know if they really loved each other, and didn't just enter marriage and say "alright, we're married now, so we love each other", which seemed to be the contemporary approach to love and marriage. For instance, Catherine Parr was in love with someone else entirely when she married Henry, but she did her best to be a good wife (and further some of her own causes as well :=)). Henry and CP's portrayal is a rather realistic depiction of marriage in relation to the times they lived in. Maybe Brandon and Catherine didn't really love each other, and when things got tough, it was over. What's strange is that he let her go, I thought divorce or similar situations were only initiated by the man in those times. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Verlah |
78. RE: What has he done wrong?
Jun 26 2010, 11:31 AM EDT
So true what you say!I haven't watched Season 4 yet so I cannot really say anything on the breakup of Charles and Catherine. Do you find this valuable? |
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DuchessofSuffolk |
79. RE: What has he done wrong?
Jun 26 2010, 9:58 PM EDT
Do you guys think that she was upset that he killed the pilgrims or the women and children when he was sent back? I was always under the impression should could deal with the men revels (as this is the 16th century and that was how you handled rebels) but Charles going back and killing the women and children would have been unusual and cruel even by those standards. That is where I thought her issue was, but I think they're relationship wen bad after he made her cry re the french floozy :) Do you find this valuable? |