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Discussion: After all the wives why is Anne Boleyn the most intriquing?
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tudorcrazy |
After all the wives why is Anne Boleyn the most intriquing?
Jan 21 2010, 6:08 PM EST
I have been re watching the Tudors everyday for weeks now.As much as I love Maria Doyle Kennedy's performance, and gifted portrayal as "the Queen of Hearts," Anne is haunting my intellect. Maybe not Anne, Maybe it is Natalie Dormer as Anne, and Michael Hirst's vision of Anne. I am now reading more about her, even after the standards of Ives, Starkey etc. Perhaps it is anticipation of the new book that is coming out about her in the spring. Is it me, or is there an oblique fascination to her character? It is like seeing a car accident, and not stopping yourself from watching.
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Elliemental |
1. RE: After all the wives why is Anne Boleyn the most intriquing?
Jan 21 2010, 6:26 PM EST
I really relate to that last bit you said about the car crash. Reading about Anne, the extraordinary lengths Henry went to to marry Anne, the way she held him off for so long, only for the marraige to end after barely three years with Anne being marched off to the scaffold. It is like watching a motorway pile-up, in slow motion.If you look at the whole picture here. Henry moves heaven and earth for a long time to marry her, and callously disposes of her in next to no time at all. That is fascinating. Its fascinating how this obsessive lust/love so quickly turned into a burning hatred. It always astounds me that Henry never once regretted her death (like he did certain others). He was so calm and casual about it all. It adds to the horror of it. So basically, yeah, its a unique story. It certainly beats your average "boy meets girl" story! 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
angelosdaughter |
2. RE: After all the wives why is Anne Boleyn the most intriquing?
Jan 21 2010, 9:23 PM EST
| Post edited: Jan 21 2010, 9:30 PM EST
"I have been re watching the Tudors everyday for weeks now.As much as I love Maria Doyle Kennedy's performance, and gifted portrayal as "the Queen of Hearts," Anne is haunting my intellect. Maybe not Anne, Maybe it is Natalie Dormer as Anne, and Michael Hirst's vision of Anne. I am now reading more about her, even after the standards of Ives, Starkey etc. Perhaps it is anticipation of the new book that is coming out about her in the spring. Is it me, or is there an oblique fascination to her character? It is like seeing a car accident, and not stopping yourself from watching."I think Anne is intriguing to so many today, because she seems more like a modern woman. She took some control over her fate; she was not a mere pawn She tried to discourage Henry's interest at first. when that was not successful, she set a high price (marriage) on her virtue. We can never know, but perhaps she hoped that would discourage his interest. Anne was not a subservient compliant wife of the time. She was her own person with a mind of her own. She did not hide her lights under a bushel as wives were expected to do then, to make Henry look good. Anne took a leading role in trying to interest Henry in religious reform and openly promoted the English version of Scripture. She was not afraid to stand up to Henry, even going so far as to suggest that the income obtained from the dissolution of the monasteris be used to help the poor. . She defended herself ably without hysterics in court, and she died bravely. She would not have understood feminism as we know it, but Anne Boleyn was more a woman of our time in many ways, than her own. 2 out of 4 found this valuable. Do you? |
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tudorcrazy |
3. RE: After all the wives why is Anne Boleyn the most intriquing?
Jan 21 2010, 9:42 PM EST
That was very intuitive. Yes, there is a bit of the more modern woman. I think it was her turn, when she crawled to the top after 7 years, she wanted to shine. She was in competition with Henry. He quickly lost interest once she was elevated. He had a pattern of killing those close to him. He was the ultimate power broker. He told everyone how much he trusted them, and not to worry, days before he killed them. Wolsey, Boleyn, Thomas More, Cromwell. He just disposed of them. Anne however, was the ultimate kill, and he did miss her. He just showed the English stiff upper lip. And then he went mad.
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MyLadyGreensleeves |
4. RE: After all the wives why is Anne Boleyn the most intriquing?
Jan 22 2010, 11:23 AM EST
Very interesting thread. I agree with all of the above points.As ellie says, this is a story you just couldn't make up. It has all the elements of a great story - lust, betrayal, power, death, religion, the lot. The fact that a king would risk literally everything - including his soul - to marry this woman, and then heartlessly have her killed a mere 1000 days later really is an incredible, and incredibly tragic, story. And it's all true. That's why I don't understand why some film makers feel the need to 'embellish' the Ann Boleyn story - it's amazing enough on its own. I also agree that Ann appeals to a modern audience because she seems to be somehow 'contemporary'. She was (relatively) independent and outspoken, she won the heart of a king without being particularly beautiful; she was sophisticated and cosmopolitan. Of course she was also deeply reliogus and considered her main goal in life was to produce sons, so she was still very much a creature of her time - how could she not be? But she still appeals more to the modern person than any other of HEnry's wives. "Anne however, was the ultimate kill, and he did miss her. He just showed the English stiff upper lip. And then he went mad" What do you base this on? As I said in the other thread, I don't think there's any evidence that Henry in any way regretted Ann's death, or even that he ever thought of her after she was gone. He was VERY good at rationalising whatever he did. He was not one to be plagued by a guilty conscience - as far as he was concerned, he had absolutely nothing to be guilty about. 2 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you? |
CarolineZ |
5. RE: After all the wives why is Anne Boleyn the most intriquing?
Jan 22 2010, 11:30 AM EST
""... I don't think there's any evidence that Henry in any way regretted Ann's death, or even that he ever thought of her after she was gone. He was VERY good at rationalising whatever he did. He was not one to be plagued by a guilty conscience - as far as he was concerned, he had absolutely nothing to be guilty about.""That's part of what makes it so horrible! 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
henry's7thwife |
6. RE: After all the wives why is Anne Boleyn the most intriquing?
Jan 22 2010, 12:42 PM EST
"That made me laugh so much!! :D He may not have regretted her death, but I keep wondering if he did miss her ... On the other hand, if he thought she betrayed her, then he probably would have gotten over her. Do you find this valuable? |
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tudorcrazy |
7. RE: After all the wives why is Anne Boleyn the most intriquing?
Jan 22 2010, 4:28 PM EST
| Post edited: Jan 23 2010, 7:39 AM EST
But don't you think once he destroyed her, he just kept marrying n the rebound, and did feel the loss, He went mad with the guilt.
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Elliemental |
8. RE: After all the wives why is Anne Boleyn the most intriquing?
Jan 22 2010, 4:33 PM EST
"But don't you think once he destroyed her, he judy kept marrying n the rebound, and did feel the loss, He went mad with the guilt."He hardly married Anne of Cleves on the re-bound! He married her, what? Three years after Jane died. He never mentioned Anne again, and Henry was such an emotional man, that if he did feel a terrible burden of guilt over her death, he would've made it known. Do you find this valuable? |
Jes89 |
9. RE: After all the wives why is Anne Boleyn the most intriquing?
Jan 22 2010, 4:37 PM EST
"He hardly married Anne of Cleves on the re-bound! He married her, what? Three years after Jane died. He never mentioned Anne again, and Henry was such an emotional man, that if he did feel a terrible burden of guilt over her death, he would've made it known."True, that's what i believe, even thought,i would love to know that he missed her for all life, it is much more a romantic vision of mine than anything else. He was very emotional, an indeed, we would know if he missed her. Do you find this valuable? |
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Jes89 |
10. RE: After all the wives why is Anne Boleyn the most intriquing?
Jan 22 2010, 4:41 PM EST
| Post edited: Jan 22 2010, 4:42 PM EST
about Anne, she is a very complex character, she went from a simple lady to queen of England, she had a deep passion from a man that soon would send her to death, her memory was destroyed,even if today she has a lot of fans,and she is the mother of one of the greatest queens of England, and a great example of women, just like her.
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Elliemental |
11. RE: After all the wives why is Anne Boleyn the most intriquing?
Jan 22 2010, 4:47 PM EST
"i would love to know that he missed her for all life, it is much more a romantic vision of mine than anything else. "Really? I'd have lost all respect for Henry if he showed any regret. Any man who executes his own wife, and then whinges about it, or tries to palm the responsibility off onto others deserves everything they get! Do you find this valuable? |
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Jes89 |
12. RE: After all the wives why is Anne Boleyn the most intriquing?
Jan 22 2010, 4:53 PM EST
| Post edited: Jan 22 2010, 5:02 PM EST
"Really? I'd have lost all respect for Henry if he showed any regret. Any man who executes his own wife, and then whinges about it, or tries to palm the responsibility off onto others deserves everything they get!"in this point i agree with you, but i'm more Anne fan than Henry's, so as i said too much romantic holywood vision for me xD 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
MsSquirrly |
13. RE: After all the wives why is Anne Boleyn the most intriquing?
Jan 22 2010, 5:11 PM EST
Perhaps when tudorcrazy says that Henry went "mad with guilt" she doesn't mean clinically insane but certainly the year 1536 was a turning point and he became a very much changed man. Whether it was due to the jousting injuries or the betrayal he felt from Anne Boleyn and the 5 men of whom 2 were close friends who slept with him in his privy chamber, we will never know. David Starkey says in the opening of Episode 3 of "Mind of a Tyrant" : Anne Boleyn's last words were : …. “I cry mercy to God and to the King and I beg the people to pray for the king for he is a good, gentle, gracious and amiable prince” Once indeed Henry has been gracious and gentle but his steely determination to divorce his first wife and to marry Anne which Anne herself had encouraged and inspired had coarsened and brutalized him. Anne had helped to create a new Henry who would change England forever. Now she was to be one of his first victims. The Story of Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn is one of the great tragic love stories of all time but its also rather strange. It’s the story of a king who would risk everything , his throne, his kingdom, his immortal soul to marry the woman that he loved only to send her to the scaffold a mere 3 years later." You can find all 5 parts of Episode 3 here : http://tudorswiki.sho.com/page/Anne+Boleyn+Historical+profile+-+page+2 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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angelosdaughter |
14. RE: After all the wives why is Anne Boleyn the most intriquing?
Jan 22 2010, 6:32 PM EST
"Perhaps when tudorcrazy says that Henry went "mad with guilt" she doesn't mean clinically insane but certainly the year 1536 was a turning point and he became a very much changed man. Whether it was due to the jousting injuries or the betrayal he felt from Anne Boleyn and the 5 men of whom 2 were close friends who slept with him in his privy chamber, we will never know.The year 1536 certainly was an eventful one for Henry. His old nemesis, KOA passed away in January, In May, Henry beheaded Anne and, 6 men, 2 of whom as you say, were close friends. He married Jane Seymour ten days after the execution of Queen Anne Boleyn. In addtion his only hope for a male heir of his begetting at that time, Henry Fitzroy, Duke of Richmond, also died in July. In 1536 there were three living women who could arguably (in KOA's case; many of the people still saw her as rightful Queen) be called Queens of England Do you find this valuable? |
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MsSquirrly |
15. RE: After all the wives why is Anne Boleyn the most intriquing?
Jan 22 2010, 6:49 PM EST
"The year 1536 certainly was an eventful one for Henry. His old nemesis, KOA passed away in January, In May, Henry beheaded Anne and, 6 men, 2 of whom as you say, were close friends. He married Jane Seymour ten days after the execution of Queen Anne Boleyn. In addtion his only hope for a male heir of his begetting at that time, Henry Fitzroy, Duke of Richmond, also died in July. In 1536 there were three living women who could arguably (in KOA's case; many of the people still saw her as rightful Queen) be called Queens of England"Yes "the year of the three queens"... It really was downhill from there, Henry's health and mental condition continued to worsen in those last ten years. Not exactly "mad" but certainly increasingly paranoid and meglomaniacal. Ambassadors writing about him in his own lifetime said "You never saw prince nor man who made greater show of his horns, or bore them more pleasantly." and that he had become "the most dangerous and cruel man in the world." 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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henry's7thwife |
16. RE: After all the wives why is Anne Boleyn the most intriquing?
Jan 23 2010, 12:42 AM EST
"But don't you think once he destroyed her, he judy kept marrying n the rebound, and did feel the loss, He went mad with the guilt."I do not think he married Jane on the rebound. He already had a relationship with her for a few months. As for the guilt part of it, he was the "victim", so certainly he would not feel guilty. Also, I wonder if he felt the loss. Because when K. Howard was executed, he made it very clear how much he missed her. He never showed the same for Anne. Maybe he hated her ... Do you find this valuable? |
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henry's7thwife |
17. RE: After all the wives why is Anne Boleyn the most intriquing?
Jan 23 2010, 12:44 AM EST
"Really? I'd have lost all respect for Henry if he showed any regret. Any man who executes his own wife, and then whinges about it, or tries to palm the responsibility off onto others deserves everything they get!"He was a "pick up the pieces and move on" type of fellow, wasn't he? Even Howard did not keep him down for long. Do you find this valuable? |
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henry's7thwife |
18. RE: After all the wives why is Anne Boleyn the most intriquing?
Jan 23 2010, 12:46 AM EST
"In 1536 there were three living women who could arguably (in KOA's case; many of the people still saw her as rightful Queen) be called Queens of England"Must have been very confusing and dangerous time for the common people. Imagine one is talking about one queen and the other is replying with a different queen in mind ... makes for some hilarious conversations! Do you find this valuable? |
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tudorcrazy |
19. RE: After all the wives why is Anne Boleyn the most intriquing?
Jan 23 2010, 8:03 AM EST
I need to explain my choice of words. When I said he went mad, I mean he became the stubborn, tortured, tyranical king, who was never satisfied. In a way it was 1536 when he did have his turning point, and lost many around him. That kind of grief, can really work on you, especially if guilt is factored in. I truly do not think he loved Jane. He loved the idea af her pure English looks, and the fact that she could bear him sons. Anne was so unpopular with the people, casting that unpopularity on him. His vanity was always a factor.Henry was aware of court politics, and when Anne began to meddle, that was her swan song. He even told Jane outright, remember what happened to the last queen? She already wanted to meddle, but died first. And he was already cheating on Jane when she was pregnant. That's why he supposedly loved her most. She did her duty and died, saving him the trouble. He knew there was absolutely no way Anne could have slept with a hundred men. She was pregnant half of the 3 years, she was never alone, between her ladies, court business, and being with him. If she was unfaithful, I'm sure it would have been one man only. She was very religious, and she loved him. As far as her brother went, they were close, and she was the only man in her life she could confide in, as her Father was running the show, and not the sympathetic type. I think Henry missed her in his life, and that he was in love with her, but was manipulated by the court, and his own insecurities. 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
