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maryboleynfan
maryboleynfan
Queen Mary and Elizabeth's shared tomb
Nov 4 2009, 8:48 PM EST | Post edited: Nov 4 2009, 8:48 PM EST
When I discovered the inscription on Mary and Elizabeth's shared tomb said, I was confused. Shouldn't it read MARY and Elizabeth and not Elizabeth and Mary??? Since she was the older sister after all. Even if James I did like Elizabeth more and was a Prodestant, it was still disgraceful to show such disrespect to King Henry VIII's legitimate daughter and also the fact that Elizabeth's statue thing (for lack of a better word) was TWICE the size of Queen Mary's and Mary's statue was below Elizabeth's despite the fact that she was England's first Queen Regent and her older sister, and also insulting to Mary's wish to be buried next to her mother. I think that it was a terrible thing to do on the part of James I and not very kingly behaviour at all. I know it seems such a silly thing to be annoyed about but considering that Queen Mary was not shown very much love by anyone except her mother, Jane Seymour and a select few others, she deserves more respect than this considering all her hardships and the lack of respect she was shown throughout the vast majority of her life. 18  out of 27 found this valuable. Do you?    
Elliemental
Elliemental
1. RE: Queen Mary and Elizabeth's shared tomb
Nov 4 2009, 10:36 PM EST | Post edited: Nov 4 2009, 11:13 PM EST
Well, Mary died first, so obviously her`s was the first inscription to go on the tomb. Now, when Elizabeth died, instead wasting money on a whole new tomb, they just chucked her in with her sister, and to save even more cash, instead of a whole new inscription, they just got a permanent marker and scribbled ELZABETH AND before the Mary.*
Oh and I don`t know what a Prodestant is, but do you mean Protestant?
Technically, Jane Gray was England`s first Queen regent, even if she wasn`t supposed to be. Her claim was legit, and she was crowned. I would start bitching about the size of her statue, but frankly, who cares?
As for James, Mary wasnt his concern, yet Elizabeth as his predeccessor, he owed some respect to.
It would`ve been best for them to have separate tombs, as for the preferential treatment, is it any wonder?
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Reggie19
2. RE: Queen Mary and Elizabeth's shared tomb
Nov 4 2009, 11:35 PM EST | Post edited: Nov 4 2009, 11:36 PM EST
You know, i watched a documentary two weeks ago on the discovery channel, it was part of some kind of monarchy weekend special. It was called the "Forgotten" Tudors, and it was a two part docu, part 1 about Edward, part 2 about Mary. Now, even that annoyed me, the "Forgotten" Tudor? As for the point you made above Elliemental about Elizabeth just being chucked into that tomb with her sister, well, Elizabeth did literally just chuck her sister into a hole in the first place instead of obeying her final wish to be buried with her mother, it wasn't exactly a very hard task. To add to that, the inscription on the tomb today, you have to walk around it in order to find the plaque with Mary's name on it, and it's barely noticeable behind these steel bars. I'm not attacking you, just making a point. It seems Mary is, if not the forgotten Tudor, the forgotten sister... 2  out of 4 found this valuable. Do you?    
Elliemental
Elliemental
3. RE: Queen Mary and Elizabeth's shared tomb
Nov 5 2009, 2:49 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 5 2009, 2:52 AM EST
You could apply the same argument to Henry VII, and Edward VI. They are all completely overshaddowed by the collossus of Henry VIII and Elizabeth I. In fact, I`m not even too sure of where poor Edward is buried at all! It`s unfair, but its` inevitable. Besides, I don`t think that they are forgotten, people just don`t attatch as much significance to them as they do the others.
Maybe Mary should`ve been buried in Peterborough with KoA, but would people then be moaning that she wasn`t buried like a true Queen of England, in Westminster?
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LNor19
LNor19
4. RE: Queen Mary and Elizabeth's shared tomb
Nov 5 2009, 6:09 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 5 2009, 6:09 AM EST
"You could apply the same argument to Henry VII, and Edward VI. They are all completely overshaddowed by the collossus of Henry VIII and Elizabeth I. In fact, I`m not even too sure of where poor Edward is buried at all! It`s unfair, but its` inevitable. Besides, I don`t think that they are forgotten, people just don`t attatch as much significance to them as they do the others.
Maybe Mary should`ve been buried in Peterborough with KoA, but would people then be moaning that she wasn`t buried like a true Queen of England, in Westminster?
"
Henry VII has a gold effigy alongside his wife Elizabeth of York, it's quite beautiful: http://tudorhistory.org/groups/effigies.jpg
Mary gave Edward VI an elaborate tomb in Westminster Abby: http://s3.amazonaws.com/findagrave/photos/2001/222/edwardviking.jpg
Mary wished to be buried beside her mother, I fully believe she was the true first Queen of England, and had she been buried in Petersborough, well I won't be moaning about it. Mary wished for a decent burial beside her mother, she got neither. She was given a nice funeral and then hastly placed in Westminster and covered with loose rocks. And were she is buried now is beneath Elizabeth's coffin. Underneath an elaborate effigy to Elizabeth and with plaque just mentioning her. Hardly fitting for a true Queen of England.
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fleur_de_lis
fleur_de_lis
5. RE: Queen Mary and Elizabeth's shared tomb
Nov 5 2009, 7:06 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 5 2009, 7:06 AM EST
I feel Mary was hard done by too but what can we do about it? I do love that Mary gave Edward a fitting burial and tomb. Even though he was rather cruel towards her in life she still respected him enough to give him a decent burial. At least people are starting to understand Mary now and know she wasn't a complete monster, i guess that is progress. I never did like James I either but I think that's a bad thing to say on Bonfire Night though haha. 3  out of 5 found this valuable. Do you?    
CarolineZ
CarolineZ
6. RE: Queen Mary and Elizabeth's shared tomb
Nov 5 2009, 7:16 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 5 2009, 7:16 AM EST
"I feel Mary was hard done by too but what can we do about it? I do love that Mary gave Edward a fitting burial and tomb. Even though he was rather cruel towards her in life she still respected him enough to give him a decent burial. At least people are starting to understand Mary now and know she wasn't a complete monster, i guess that is progress. I never did like James I either but I think that's a bad thing to say on Bonfire Night though haha."
Sorry for my ignorance, but what is Bonfire Night?
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fleur_de_lis
fleur_de_lis
7. RE: Queen Mary and Elizabeth's shared tomb
Nov 5 2009, 7:58 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 5 2009, 8:00 AM EST
Its also called Guy Fawkes day but i don't know anyone who calls it that. Its the Gunpowder plot in 1605 where some Catholics tried to blow up Parliament when James and Protestant nobles were going to be inside it. It was discovered on 5th Novemeber and the conspirators, one of which was Guy Fawkes, were caught and executed. So every year on 5th November there are fireworks and bonfires to celebrate them being caught and executed. Its kind of a weird thing to celebrate it really but i love it. Some people think it might have been a conspiracy to gain popularity for the very unpopular King James and create more anti- Catholic feelings in England. Enjoying fireworks, bonfires, jacket potatoes, cider, sparklers and toffee apples in the autumn air. My favourite night of the year :-) Do you find this valuable?    

Reggie19
8. RE: Queen Mary and Elizabeth's shared tomb
Nov 5 2009, 8:13 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 5 2009, 8:13 AM EST
"Henry VII has a gold effigy alongside his wife Elizabeth of York, it's quite beautiful: http://tudorhistory.org/groups/effigies.jpg
Mary gave Edward VI an elaborate tomb in Westminster Abby: http://s3.amazonaws.com/findagrave/photos/2001/222/edwardviking.jpg
Mary wished to be buried beside her mother, I fully believe she was the true first Queen of England, and had she been buried in Petersborough, well I won't be moaning about it. Mary wished for a decent burial beside her mother, she got neither. She was given a nice funeral and then hastly placed in Westminster and covered with loose rocks. And were she is buried now is beneath Elizabeth's coffin. Underneath an elaborate effigy to Elizabeth and with plaque just mentioning her. Hardly fitting for a true Queen of England. "
This is something which has always bothered me about Elizabeth, her utter disregard for those who have gone before her. It's always been something she seemed to share in common with her father, the overwhelming ability to forget. Yes, there was animosity between the two, but a proper funeral couldn't have been too much to ask, and one last wish. Mary showed dislike for her younger brother on the basis of his beliefs, and reportedly refused to sit on the throne on her coronation because of whom had occupied it before, yet she still granted him a proper funeral and burial. Elizabeth just couldn't have been bothered...
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Anne'sCurls
Anne'sCurls
9. RE: Queen Mary and Elizabeth's shared tomb
Nov 5 2009, 8:44 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 5 2009, 8:45 AM EST
Oh here we go again, it made perfect sense for Elizabeth not to bury Mary next to Katherine because Elizabeth was all about image portrayal. Elizabeth out of Jane Grey, Edward, Mary, and even Mary QOS had the least substantial claim to the English throne because of the crap that surronded her parents marriage. Sure it would have been nice for Elizabeth to bury Mary with Katherine but even bringing up Katherine of Aragon when you are Anne Boleyn's daughter is dangerous. Plus Mary had to be buried as a queen and Elizabeth's claim to the throne was based on the fact that Katherine was never queen; so you can't bury Queen Mary I next to her non-queen mother Katherine of Aragon especially if you are Anne Boleyn's daughter. Was it sad, probably, was what Elizabeth did smart? Definitely.
And as for being the forgotten Tudors, we may not like it, but Mary and Edward are the forgotten one's. And if they are even remembered it is because of the Prince and the Pauper and Bloody Mary.
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SemperEadem
SemperEadem
10. RE: Queen Mary and Elizabeth's shared tomb
Nov 5 2009, 10:49 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 5 2009, 10:49 AM EST
It might interest everyone to learn that there is a growing body of literature out there on the meaning of tombs and burial placements. The big conception from this body of work is that a royal person's (or noble's) burial position had more to do with legitimizing the position of the current monarch than any desire to see justice or honor done to previous rulers. The same goes for trashing the monarch before you, each Tudor used the "look how horrible the previous ruler was but now look at how awesome I am!" approach. The primary boon to both Henry VIII's reign and Elizabeth's reign was that they had the good fortune to experience longevity - a long reign can do more for a monarch's image and policies than anything else. :-) 4  out of 4 found this valuable. Do you?    
LNor19
LNor19
11. RE: Queen Mary and Elizabeth's shared tomb
Nov 5 2009, 11:16 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 5 2009, 11:16 AM EST
"Oh here we go again, it made perfect sense for Elizabeth not to bury Mary next to Katherine because Elizabeth was all about image portrayal. Elizabeth out of Jane Grey, Edward, Mary, and even Mary QOS had the least substantial claim to the English throne because of the crap that surronded her parents marriage. Sure it would have been nice for Elizabeth to bury Mary with Katherine but even bringing up Katherine of Aragon when you are Anne Boleyn's daughter is dangerous. Plus Mary had to be buried as a queen and Elizabeth's claim to the throne was based on the fact that Katherine was never queen; so you can't bury Queen Mary I next to her non-queen mother Katherine of Aragon especially if you are Anne Boleyn's daughter. Was it sad, probably, was what Elizabeth did smart? Definitely.
And as for being the forgotten Tudors, we may not like it, but Mary and Edward are the forgotten one's. And if they are even remembered it is because of the Prince and the Pauper and Bloody Mary. "
Actually one of Mary's first acts as Queen was to validate her parent's marriage, thus re-establishing Katharine as legitmate Queen of England. Elizabeth never un-did that act, so Katharine was Queen.
Elizabeth's claim to the throne was that she was a Tudor, not b/c Katharine was/was not Queen.
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Anne'sCurls
Anne'sCurls
12. RE: Queen Mary and Elizabeth's shared tomb
Nov 5 2009, 11:33 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 5 2009, 11:33 AM EST
And before Edward VI died he said that Jane Grey was the legitimate hei yet that didnt affect Mary did it?
Yes Elizabeth's claim to the throne was through her father but the subject of Anne Boleyn was still a sore subject and there were many throughout Europe who said she was not the rightful queen because of the fact of Anne and Henry's marriage and if that marriage was not legitimate then Elizabeth was a bastard and someone else could have easily become the ruler. All I am saying is it was a sore subject for Elizabeth and if I was her I wouldn't go out of my way to move Katherine of Aragon from her resting place. Again I will say if Mary wanted it done she should have done it herself. Didn't James do that for his mother?
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LNor19
LNor19
13. RE: Queen Mary and Elizabeth's shared tomb
Nov 5 2009, 2:19 PM EST | Post edited: Nov 5 2009, 3:08 PM EST
"And before Edward VI died he said that Jane Grey was the legitimate hei yet that didnt affect Mary did it?"
We don't know how Edward truely felt about Jane Grey being his heir, it was clear that his succession had been changed, and low and behold the person whispering in his ear on his deathbed was Jane Grey's father-in-law. Also, compared to Mary, Jane's "claim" had nothing to stand on since it was Henry who placed Mary and Elizabeth back into the succession, despite their mothers.

James moved his mother to Westminster, but he did not do it so he could be buried beside her. It would've been seen as a bad omen for Mary to move her Mother with the intent to be buried beside when she was still living.

But we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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AJBates
AJBates
14. RE: Queen Mary and Elizabeth's shared tomb
Nov 5 2009, 2:47 PM EST | Post edited: Nov 5 2009, 2:47 PM EST
Also I think the reason that Elizabeth couldn't reverse her father's act of parliment to legitmaize herself was that in doing so she would be saying that her father made a mistake and was wrong which wouldn't have been looked well on by her people 3  out of 3 found this valuable. Do you?    
Anne'sCurls
Anne'sCurls
15. RE: Queen Mary and Elizabeth's shared tomb
Nov 5 2009, 4:41 PM EST | Post edited: Nov 5 2009, 4:45 PM EST
"We don't know how Edward truely felt about Jane Grey being his heir, it was clear that his succession had been changed, and low and behold the person whispering in his ear on his deathbed was Jane Grey's father-in-law. Also, compared to Mary, Jane's "claim" had nothing to stand on since it was Henry who placed Mary and Elizabeth back into the succession, despite their mothers.

James moved his mother to Westminster, but he did not do it so he could be buried beside her. It would've been seen as a bad omen for Mary to move her Mother with the intent to be buried beside when she was still living.

But we'll just have to agree to disagree."
I'm sorry but it doesnt matter who was whispering in his ear, he was king he said Jane was his heir the same way Henry VIII made his list of heirs, the same way Mary took it upon herself to say her parents marriage was legitimate. As for Jame and Mary, whether she and he did it to to be buried next to their mother still doesnt have a factor in this situation. James took it upon himself to move his mother and she was executed for treason. So Mary could have moved her own mother the same way seeing as how she took it upon herself to declare that Katherine's marriage was legitimate.
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Elliemental
Elliemental
16. RE: Queen Mary and Elizabeth's shared tomb
Nov 6 2009, 2:28 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 6 2009, 2:41 AM EST
" Mary wished for a decent burial beside her mother, she got neither. "
Dear God, she`s buried in Westminster Cathedral, not the the anonymous poor ground of Milltown!


The problem with Mary`s reign was, it was just so retrograde. Everything she did was a backwards step for English society. Someone mentioned Mary declaring her mother`s marriage valid, well, this is just one example of flagrantly (not to mention useless), retrograde piece of legislation introduced by Mary. She tried to undo just about every change that had brought about enourmous leaps forward for society in England. For any society to flourish, it must progress forwards, and not hark back to the old days. And that is was marks Mary out as a failure, she may not have been a monster, but ultimately, she was a failure. And that is why she will never be held in the same regard as Elizabeth, whose reign ushered in a whole new era, and led the way for England to become what it has ultimately become.
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LNor19
LNor19
17. RE: Queen Mary and Elizabeth's shared tomb
Nov 6 2009, 4:37 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 6 2009, 4:37 AM EST
"The problem with Mary`s reign was, it was just so retrograde. Everything she did was a backwards step for English society. Someone mentioned Mary declaring her mother`s marriage valid, well, this is just one example of flagrantly (not to mention useless), retrograde piece of legislation introduced by Mary. She tried to undo just about every change that had brought about enourmous leaps forward for society in England. For any society to flourish, it must progress forwards, and not hark back to the old days. And that is was marks Mary out as a failure, she may not have been a monster, but ultimately, she was a failure. And that is why she will never be held in the same regard as Elizabeth, whose reign ushered in a whole new era, and led the way for England to become what it has ultimately become."
Mary's validation of her parents marriage wasn't useless, in fact enforced her legitmacy as Queen, it was an act of enpowerment.
And I'm not sure how she tried to undo "just about every change that had brought about enourmous leaps forward for society in England". Mary set up a new coining system that would be used well into the 1700's, she also promoted exploration and by doing so was the first English monarch to set up relations with Russia. She also introduced reforms that benefitted the less fortunate. And she was attempting to create jobs to revive the economy. Also, she completely reformed the Catholic in England to a more modern standard, of which it benfitted from. The only thing old about Mary's church was that is was Catholic and not Protestant. Also, Mary continued the Tudor dynasty by placing Elizabeth as her successor.
Truely her only failures were the marriage to Philip II (and the reprcussions of it) and not restoring Catholicism to England. The rest was circumstancial, like the drought that only contributed the economy's poor state, that Mary did not actually cause but recieved when Edward VI died.
cont..
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LNor19
LNor19
18. RE: Queen Mary and Elizabeth's shared tomb
Nov 6 2009, 4:41 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 6 2009, 4:41 AM EST
"Mary's validation of her parents marriage wasn't useless, in fact enforced her legitmacy as Queen, it was an act of enpowerment.
And I'm not sure how she tried to undo "just about every change that had brought about enourmous leaps forward for society in England". Mary set up a new coining system that would be used well into the 1700's, she also promoted exploration and by doing so was the first English monarch to set up relations with Russia. She also introduced reforms that benefitted the less fortunate. And she was attempting to create jobs to revive the economy. Also, she completely reformed the Catholic in England to a more modern standard, of which it benfitted from. The only thing old about Mary's church was that is was Catholic and not Protestant. Also, Mary continued the Tudor dynasty by placing Elizabeth as her successor.
Truely her only failures were the marriage to Philip II (and the reprcussions of it) and not restoring Catholicism to England. The rest was circumstancial, like the drought that only contributed the economy's poor state, that Mary did not actually cause but recieved when Edward VI died.
cont..
"
Does Mary's reign amount to Elizabeth's...of course not. But was Mary's reign a complete failure...no. In fact many things Mary set up, Elizabeth would perfect upon. For the most part Elizabeth did many great things to better England all her own, but in some ironic way, Mary posthumusly contributed to some aspects of her success.
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Elliemental
Elliemental
19. RE: Queen Mary and Elizabeth's shared tomb
Nov 6 2009, 5:36 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 6 2009, 5:42 AM EST
What? Yeah whatever, restoring catholicism was a backwards step imo. I`m entitled to my opinion, thank you very much. We`re never going to reach any kind`ve understanding here and i`m not up for endlessly going around in circles. You think Mary I was some sort`ve heaven sent angel, who can do no wrong, and Henry VIII has the devil incarnate. Fair enough, but thank god for the sensible people here. 3  out of 54 found this valuable. Do you?    
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