Location: Did Elizabeth I Have Children ?

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MsSquirrly
MsSquirrly
Did Elizabeth I have Children?
Sep 3 2009, 1:44 PM EDT | Post edited: Sep 3 2009, 2:53 PM EDT
ETR posted the pic above http://tudorswiki.sho.com/page/Did+Elizabeth+I+Have+Children+%3F with this comment :

I have had the opportunity to see a painting of a woman who looks like Elizabeth I shown as pregnant. Please go to sirbacon.org to discover more and view the pictures in the gallery. Supposedly, Bess and Dudley had secretly married and she had a child in 1561. That child was known as Sir Francis Bacon. He was recorded in the Bacon registers as Mr. Francis Bacon, a title not given to a common child. She is also rumored to have been the mother of Robert Devereux, Earl of Essex. There are extant letters from Nicholas Bacon's wife who writes of the child as 'good as her own' or something to that extent. I'm having computer problems and had written something here, but deleted it instead of saving. Read all the pages and view the gallery. It makes an interesting story sparks the imagination of Bess actually not being the Virgin Queen. Here is the portrait in question at Hampton. My question, How did Bess pull off 2 secret pregnancies, and did she really marry Dudley?


Thought I would put it in the discussion forum for comments.
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Keyword tags: Elizabeth I pregnancies
Conyle
Conyle
1. RE: Did Elizabeth I have Children?
Sep 3 2009, 2:38 PM EDT | Post edited: Sep 3 2009, 2:38 PM EDT
With the clothes they wore....I bet she could pull it off. Could it have remained a secret all this time though?

There were also rumors she had a miscarriage after being impregnated by Thomas Seymour.
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elizabethtudorrose
elizabethtudorrose
2. RE: Did Elizabeth I have Children?
Sep 3 2009, 2:38 PM EDT | Post edited: Sep 3 2009, 2:38 PM EDT
Thanks for helping me out w/the page MSSqu. I wasn't sure where/how to set this up and flew by the seat of my pants, lol!

I think an exhumation of Elizabeth's remains could clearly show whether or not she had children. Surely the pelvic area would show a hint of something for scientists/doctors/historians to prove that she did, or did not. A forensics person would know too. Just don't put Starkey near any artifacts if she were exhumed!!! lolol! I'm very skeptical of de Vere being her son, as well as Essex. Essex may be Dudley's and not Devereux's, but definitely not Bess' son. Elizabeth and Lettice Knollys hated each other after her marriage to Dudley, and she had been exiled from court for 8 years for something she said/did that offended Bess prior to her marriage to Dudley. Their relationship was strained at best. But I was intrigued by the thought of Francis Bacon actually being her child. Mitrochondrial DNA could be found if Bacon's body can be located.

Peace,
ETR
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Conyle
Conyle
3. RE: Did Elizabeth I have Children?
Sep 3 2009, 2:39 PM EDT | Post edited: Sep 3 2009, 2:39 PM EDT
That link is down, MsS. Do you find this valuable?    

Reggie19
4. RE: Did Elizabeth I have Children?
Sep 3 2009, 2:44 PM EDT | Post edited: Sep 3 2009, 2:44 PM EDT
"With the clothes they wore....I bet she could pull it off. Could it have remained a secret all this time though?

There were also rumors she had a miscarriage after being impregnated by Thomas Seymour."
Yes, Alison Weir used that rumour to dramatic effect in her fiction novel the Lady Elizabeth!
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MsSquirrly
MsSquirrly
5. RE: Did Elizabeth I have Children?
Sep 3 2009, 2:47 PM EDT | Post edited: Sep 3 2009, 2:47 PM EDT
"That link is down, MsS."
yeah its weird, I think wetpaint must be working on something because I kept getting that error page when I was trying to add comments to it.
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Conyle
Conyle
6. RE: Did Elizabeth I have Children?
Sep 3 2009, 2:48 PM EDT | Post edited: Sep 3 2009, 2:48 PM EDT
"yeah its weird, I think wetpaint must be working on something because I kept getting that error page when I was trying to add comments to it."
I look forward to reading it! It will probably be back soon.
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MsSquirrly
MsSquirrly
7. RE: Did Elizabeth I have Children?
Sep 3 2009, 2:50 PM EDT | Post edited: Sep 3 2009, 2:54 PM EDT
"I look forward to reading it! It will probably be back soon."
Have you tried clicking the link at the top of the page where it says - Location: Did Elizabeth I Have Children ?

Ok I took the brackets away and now it seems to work
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Conyle
Conyle
8. RE: Did Elizabeth I have Children?
Sep 3 2009, 2:51 PM EDT | Post edited: Sep 3 2009, 2:51 PM EDT
"Yes, Alison Weir used that rumour to dramatic effect in her fiction novel the Lady Elizabeth!"
I know, I read that! And there were rumors about her having given birth to Seymour's child as well, now that I remember. Something about a midwife being taken blindfolded in the night to the house of a young noble woman and helping with the delivery, then the baby being taken away. Weir ran with it in "The Lady Elizabeth".
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Reggie19
9. RE: Did Elizabeth I have Children?
Sep 3 2009, 3:02 PM EDT | Post edited: Sep 3 2009, 3:02 PM EDT
"I know, I read that! And there were rumors about her having given birth to Seymour's child as well, now that I remember. Something about a midwife being taken blindfolded in the night to the house of a young noble woman and helping with the delivery, then the baby being taken away. Weir ran with it in "The Lady Elizabeth"."
Yup, Weir cited that reference in her book, however in the telling of it she had Elizabeth give birth to a stillborn, and it was immediately tossed into the fire i believe... really makes you wonder?
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elizabethtudorrose
elizabethtudorrose
10. RE: Did Elizabeth I have Children?
Sep 3 2009, 3:17 PM EDT | Post edited: Sep 3 2009, 3:17 PM EDT
The picture is working. I just got on and my statement and the pic along w/MS Squ's comment under and the thread. It's too bad you can't see the pic as you comment, as it does look like Bess. There are links to it and you can find one under Anne Boleyn my herione thread to see the photo and the site I got it from. Do you find this valuable?    
LNor19
LNor19
11. RE: Did Elizabeth I have Children?
Sep 4 2009, 3:34 AM EDT | Post edited: Sep 4 2009, 3:50 AM EDT
Hey everyone, scadanlous suggestions indeed!
I found a high quality of the painting, and I must say, it does look a bit like Elizabeth, especially in the eyes and nose, and also to mention her large forehead.
Full painting: http://tudorswiki.sho.com/photo/7352586/Unknown+Hampton+Court+Woman
Detail: http://tudorswiki.sho.com/photo/7352587/Unknown+Hampton+Court+Woman%2C+detail

The painting was supposedly done by Gheeraets, who was often told to 'soften' Elizabeth's facial attributes, and with that being the case, and if this is indeed Elizabeth, then it can definately be seen.
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s.rochie
s.rochie
12. RE: Did Elizabeth I have Children?
Sep 4 2009, 4:01 AM EDT | Post edited: Sep 4 2009, 4:03 AM EDT
It is unlikely that Elizabeth would have permitted a painting that represented her as pregnant. Even if this painting shows pregnancy, which it does not in any clear sense, it would have been treasonable. No one would have risked such a thing - certainly not a court painter like Gaheerts with a reputation and a business to maintain.
The argument that it might have been painted after her death is even less plausible, since Elizabeth's successor James would have been incandescent at any implication that his claim to the throne of England was built on false pretences (i.e. that Elizabeth had a child and heir).
Yes, it does show a woman in a loose-fitting gown, but this was the kind of gown that was often worn on informal occasions - a kind of house-coat or night-gown. It does not necessarily indicate pregnancy. She has red hair, but so did many women in imitation of the Queen.
The theory, often aired, that Elizabeth would have covered up her pregnancies by going on progresses is even more absurd. The purpose of going on progresses was to be seen by the populace, a propaganda exercise which entailed going along to lots of dinners, parties and plays. In fact, the Queen would be surrounded by and seen by more people on a progress than while at court. She had typically a half-dozen or so women in her privy chamber at all times.
Finally, I would like to quote from the epitaph, in her own words, of Blanche Parry - a woman who attended upon Elizabeth as Chief Lady of the Privy Chamber for an almost unbroken period of over sixty years. ''With maiden Queen a maid did end my life.'
See: http://www.squidoo.com/blanche-parry
Blanche was a woman of immense integrity, religious conviction and intelligence. She never once betrayed the trust that her Queen placed in her, and she would not have made such a statement unless it was entirely true.
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LNor19
LNor19
13. RE: Did Elizabeth I have Children?
Sep 4 2009, 4:24 AM EDT | Post edited: Sep 4 2009, 4:24 AM EDT
Personally, I'm on the fence. The romantic in me squeals with joy at this painting! Was the Virgin Queen a mother? But historian pulls back and notices while this does look a great deal like Elizabeth, perhaps she is in a loose fitting gown, not uncommon to her time. Surely should would have not commissoned a painting of herself in such a state, knowing her reputation.

However, Elizabeth was a shrewd woman, perhaps this painting was meant to be private, or perhaps she was pregnant but she made sure to painted in a loose fitting gown, leaving no one to the wiser. It was over 400 years ago, so sadly, we will never know.
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lettice
lettice
14. RE: Did Elizabeth I have Children?
Sep 4 2009, 7:42 AM EDT | Post edited: Sep 4 2009, 7:42 AM EDT
"ETR posted the pic above http://tudorswiki.sho.com/page/Did+Elizabeth+I+Have+Children+%3F with this comment :

I have had the opportunity to see a painting of a woman who looks like Elizabeth I shown as pregnant. Please go to sirbacon.org to discover more and view the pictures in the gallery. Supposedly, Bess and Dudley had secretly married and she had a child in 1561. That child was known as Sir Francis Bacon. He was recorded in the Bacon registers as Mr. Francis Bacon, a title not given to a common child. She is also rumored to have been the mother of Robert Devereux, Earl of Essex. There are extant letters from Nicholas Bacon's wife who writes of the child as 'good as her own' or something to that extent. I'm having computer problems and had written something here, but deleted it instead of saving. Read all the pages and view the gallery. It makes an interesting story sparks the imagination of Bess actually not being the Virgin Queen. Here is the portrait in question at Hampton. My question, How did Bess pull off 2 secret pregnancies, and did she really marry Dudley?


Thought I would put it in the discussion forum for comments."
That's a good question, MsSquirrly! I don't know how Elizabeth could have kept any pregnancy at any time in her life secret, but I guess anything is possible.
If Elizabeth did marry Dudley, he became a bigamist when he married Lettice Knollys.
I tend to believe her to be a Virgin queen who may have fooled around but kept her maiden head intact.
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juliana-angela
juliana-angela
15. RE: Did Elizabeth I have Children?
Sep 4 2009, 8:34 AM EDT | Post edited: Sep 4 2009, 8:34 AM EDT
"That's a good question, MsSquirrly! I don't know how Elizabeth could have kept any pregnancy at any time in her life secret, but I guess anything is possible.
If Elizabeth did marry Dudley, he became a bigamist when he married Lettice Knollys.
I tend to believe her to be a Virgin queen who may have fooled around but kept her maiden head intact."
Given the very public life of the Court and the scrutiny that she was under, it is highly unlikely that Elizabeth could have kept a pregnancy secret. I also agree with Lettice that she probably remained a virgin, at least technically!
Francis Bacon was the son of Nicholas Bacon and his wife Anne, nee Cooke. Elizabeth knew the family and took an interest in the young Francis, who was very bright. One (fairly) modern author apparently suggested that Francis was Elizabeth's son, but never produced any evidence. A far more common theory is that Bacon wrote Shakespeare's plays, but this appears almost as unlikely as the parentage story.
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elizabethtudorrose
elizabethtudorrose
16. RE: Did Elizabeth I have Children?
Sep 4 2009, 1:01 PM EDT | Post edited: Sep 4 2009, 1:01 PM EDT
"That's a good question, MsSquirrly! I don't know how Elizabeth could have kept any pregnancy at any time in her life secret, but I guess anything is possible.
If Elizabeth did marry Dudley, he became a bigamist when he married Lettice Knollys.
I tend to believe her to be a Virgin queen who may have fooled around but kept her maiden head intact."
Hi Lettiece, Let's not forget Douglass Sheffield! He was married to her too before he married Lettice. Tho he claimed her child as his son, he made Douglass say the marriage was not a true marriage.

I feel ambiguous about Bess' virginity. I like to think that she fooled around as much as she could, but like you said, kept her maidenhead. Tho the other part of me thinks it's a shame she never experienced the real thing. A book I read, (to tatters!) lets us believe that she was in her 40's during the Anjou courtship, and she goes all the way w/Dudley hoping to get pregnant. The book is called Legend by Susan Kay. One of the best fiction's of Bess I've ever read.

Regards,
ETR
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elizabethtudorrose
elizabethtudorrose
17. RE: Did Elizabeth I have Children?
Sep 4 2009, 1:10 PM EDT | Post edited: Sep 4 2009, 1:10 PM EDT
Hi Juliana,

The info I read was from the parish registry's record births. It notes that a Mr. was put before the child's name, and letters extant from Bacon's 'mother to his father is show that she liked Francis as if he were her own, but it was rather more coded than that. If you read all the stuff on the website, you'll find the blurp about letters, how Bacon's father did NOT provide any money for him upon his death, yet all his siblings were. It's his father's will and exists in some library/museum. I can't remember exactly where these documents are. I have had a REAL bad day today! Murphys Law all day long! At least I can type at the moment, but who knows when the computer will konk next!

Regards,
ETR
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juliana-angela
juliana-angela
18. RE: Did Elizabeth I have Children?
Sep 4 2009, 1:34 PM EDT | Post edited: Sep 4 2009, 1:34 PM EDT
Even if there is some doubt about Anne being Francis Bacon's mother, it would still be a huge leap to argue that Elizabeth was. Apparently, Francis' father had saved up money to buy him an estate rather than leaving him money in his will, but he died very suddenly before he was able to make the purchase, which indicates that he intended to provide for Francis.
As for Elizabeth, it is possible that she was able to have a fuller sexual relationship when she was past the age of conception, but we will never know for certain,
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elizabethtudorrose
elizabethtudorrose
19. RE: Did Elizabeth I have Children?
Sep 5 2009, 4:10 AM EDT | Post edited: Sep 5 2009, 4:10 AM EDT
While I generally agree that it would have been impossible that Bess was pregnant and hid it, another part of me says, Hey, this is Bess! The founder of subtrifuge! If anyone could pull it off, she could. I remember having a similar discussion w/a family member several years ago and she said that during the first 3 years of her reign, her whereabouts was not exactly known and she could well have been w/Dudley getting it on and gotten pregnant. We know her progresses were staged to save her money and for the people to see her, but couldn't it have been possible for her to deliver on one of those many progresses? We have to remember this is Bess, and she could have masterminded such an event w/a few servants, Lady Bacon being one, and trusted by Bess to the point of raising her bastard son. But you'd really have to go to the site and read all that's written there. I read it all after I saw the painting and sat here for 3 hours just reading the site. I'm sorry my memory isn't what it was and I don't recall everything I read in detail. But the site sirbacon.org has a great deal of info, some probable and some sounding downright ridiculous. Ie, Essex being Bess' son, and Bacon being Shakespeare. The portraits of Bacon and Shakespeare don't look alike, and truthfully, Shakespeare looks more like Bess than Bacon does. Tho both Bacon's and Shakespeare's writings are similar in style and double-meaning. Found inscribed in the cell where Essex was held before his execution was the name Robert Tiddir (Tudor)Essex. That is also on the site and can be seen there including a pic of the cell and where the writing was found. Tho Bess was said to have had a child by Seymore, I don't believe it. She may have been seduced by him, possibly raped, but I don't think she'd endanger herself & her chances for being Queen for him or any man, 15 yrs old or not. I'd read the same of a blindfolded woman.. Do you find this valuable?    
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