Location: Duke Phillip of Bavaria

Discussion: Episode 8 : What Phillip is courting Princess Mary?Reported This is a featured thread

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Boudica
Boudica
20. RE: Episode 8 : What Phillip is courting Princess Mary?
May 21 2009, 5:32 AM EDT | Post edited: May 21 2009, 5:34 AM EDT
"There is a list of Bavarian dukes on the German wikipedia ranging from the year 548 to 1918 and there was not a single Phillip in all that time. I suspect he might not have been a duke and they just translated whatever his title was into duke in English when in fact he was something different. Or he was just some duke's brother."
Historically he's not THE duke of Bavaria, he's Duke Philip OF Bavaria. I haven't been able to track down what his offical dukedom was. Sounds like a minor one though. I only know he was the nephew of the Elector Palatine Louis V. I'm not sure how he is a cousin of Anne of Cleves either, or if that's an inacurracy on Hirst's part. In the 16th century a "cousin" was basically anybody with a degree of kinship, not necessarily a first or second cousin, so that makes things a wee bit messy when trying to track down relationships between relatives.

If anybody finds out any other info about him, please add to the character page: http://tudorswiki.sho.com/page/Duke+Philip+of+Bavaria
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Nofretete
Nofretete
21. RE: Episode 8 : What Phillip is courting Princess Mary?
May 21 2009, 6:34 AM EDT | Post edited: May 21 2009, 6:34 AM EDT
"Historically he's not THE duke of Bavaria, he's Duke Philip OF Bavaria. I haven't been able to track down what his offical dukedom was. Sounds like a minor one though. I only know he was the nephew of the Elector Palatine Louis V. I'm not sure how he is a cousin of Anne of Cleves either, or if that's an inacurracy on Hirst's part. In the 16th century a "cousin" was basically anybody with a degree of kinship, not necessarily a first or second cousin, so that makes things a wee bit messy when trying to track down relationships between relatives.

If anybody finds out any other info about him, please add to the character page: http://tudorswiki.sho.com/page/Duke+Philip+of+Bavaria"
No one said he was THE duke. The list includes all 9 dukedoms of Bavaria over time and there are no Phillips at all in it.
We already know there were only two Dukes at the time, the brothers Loius and William. There had been quite a few Dukes prior to that time, because Bavaria had lots of minor dukedoms (the 9 I mentioned), due to the fact there was no law of primogenitur. But in 1506 all the Bavarian Dukedoms got united by Albrecht IV.

As far as Louis V. goes, I looked him up and he had three nephews named Phillip, none of them were Duke of Bavaria, one was Duke of Palatine and one of Pomerania.

I don't know what to make of this. He seems to not exist!
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angelosdaughter
angelosdaughter
22. RE: Episode 8 : What Phillip is courting Princess Mary?
May 21 2009, 7:24 AM EDT | Post edited: May 21 2009, 7:25 AM EDT
"No one said he was THE duke. The list includes all 9 dukedoms of Bavaria over time and there are no Phillips at all in it.
We already know there were only two Dukes at the time, the brothers Loius and William. There had been quite a few Dukes prior to that time, because Bavaria had lots of minor dukedoms (the 9 I mentioned), due to the fact there was no law of primogenitur. But in 1506 all the Bavarian Dukedoms got united by Albrecht IV.

As far as Louis V. goes, I looked him up and he had three nephews named Phillip, none of them were Duke of Bavaria, one was Duke of Palatine and one of Pomerania.

I don't know what to make of this. He seems to not exist!"
Carolly Erickson, states that Duke Phillip of Bavaria came to England to help prepare the way for Anne of Cleves' reception and marriage. Linda Porter says that he came to England in 1539 to offer himself for military service to Henry. He must have met Mary at that time, and who knows? perhaps fell in love with her. He tried three times in 1540 to win her hand and again in 1543. He was willing to marry her knowing that her dowry was not huge (but not small, either: 7, 000 pounds, which to a minor German Duke may have seemed huge-perhaps I'm being cynical) and she, being bastardized, would have no claim on the throne of England. I certainly wish we had access to a primary source to know more about Phillip. I like to think he may have been the one man in Mary's life who sincerely cared about her.
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Nofretete
Nofretete
23. RE: Episode 8 : What Phillip is courting Princess Mary?
May 21 2009, 7:53 AM EDT | Post edited: May 21 2009, 7:53 AM EDT
"Carolly Erickson, states that Duke Phillip of Bavaria came to England to help prepare the way for Anne of Cleves' reception and marriage. Linda Porter says that he came to England in 1539 to offer himself for military service to Henry. He must have met Mary at that time, and who knows? perhaps fell in love with her. He tried three times in 1540 to win her hand and again in 1543. He was willing to marry her knowing that her dowry was not huge (but not small, either: 7, 000 pounds, which to a minor German Duke may have seemed huge-perhaps I'm being cynical) and she, being bastardized, would have no claim on the throne of England. I certainly wish we had access to a primary source to know more about Phillip. I like to think he may have been the one man in Mary's life who sincerely cared about her. "
I'm puzzled there seems to be no information about him. There certainly is no Duke of Bavaria named Phillip to be found on the net. But if he is mentioned by several sources he must have existed.

Him offfering military service makes me think he was not a Duke, though. A Dukedom in Germany was like a little kingdom at that time. There was after all no King and only the Emperor above any of those Dukes and he wasn't around much! They did what they liked in their realms.

And if he was no heir to anything a dowry of 7,000 pounds would have sounded quite nice to him, I'd wager.
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Brooke9/7
Brooke9/7
24. RE: Episode 8 : What Phillip is courting Princess Mary?
May 21 2009, 7:58 AM EDT | Post edited: May 21 2009, 7:58 AM EDT
Right on LNor19! Now that I've compared the birthdates of Mary & Phlipp (duh) it makes so much sense. Here's a few more articles if anyone wants to read them:

"The [Landshut War of Succession] ended in 1505 with the death of Elisabeth and her husband Ruprecht of the Palatinate and a decision through arbitration by Emperor Maximilian on 30 July 1505 at the Reichstag at Cologne. The two grandsons of George, Otto Henry (Otto-Heinrich) and Philipp, retained Palatinate-Neuburg (Junge Pfalz), a fragmented region from the upper Danube over Franconia to the northern part of the Upper Palatinate." (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfalz-Neuburg )

Like LNor19 said, it could be that this Philipp was simply titled Count Palatine of Neuburg, but was effectively considered a Duke by the English. "Two brothers, first under regency of Frederick II, Elector Palatine: Otto Henry, 1505–59 (Elector Palatine from 1556) and Philipp, 1505–48." From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfalz-Neuburg#Counts_Palatine_of_Neuburg

Maybe?? Where is Chapuys when you need him? :-)
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Nofretete
Nofretete
25. RE: Episode 8 : What Phillip is courting Princess Mary?
May 21 2009, 8:06 AM EDT | Post edited: May 21 2009, 8:06 AM EDT
"Right on LNor19! Now that I've compared the birthdates of Mary & Phlipp (duh) it makes so much sense. Here's a few more articles if anyone wants to read them:

"The [Landshut War of Succession] ended in 1505 with the death of Elisabeth and her husband Ruprecht of the Palatinate and a decision through arbitration by Emperor Maximilian on 30 July 1505 at the Reichstag at Cologne. The two grandsons of George, Otto Henry (Otto-Heinrich) and Philipp, retained Palatinate-Neuburg (Junge Pfalz), a fragmented region from the upper Danube over Franconia to the northern part of the Upper Palatinate." (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfalz-Neuburg )

Like LNor19 said, it could be that this Philipp was simply titled Count Palatine of Neuburg, but was effectively considered a Duke by the English. "Two brothers, first under regency of Frederick II, Elector Palatine: Otto Henry, 1505–59 (Elector Palatine from 1556) and Philipp, 1505–48." From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfalz-Neuburg#Counts_Palatine_of_Neuburg

Maybe?? Where is Chapuys when you need him? :-)
"
But Palatine is not Bavaria, not even a part of Bavaria.
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LNor19
LNor19
26. RE: Episode 8 : What Phillip is courting Princess Mary?
May 21 2009, 8:14 AM EDT | Post edited: May 21 2009, 8:14 AM EDT
"Historically he's not THE duke of Bavaria, he's Duke Philip OF Bavaria. I haven't been able to track down what his offical dukedom was. Sounds like a minor one though. I only know he was the nephew of the Elector Palatine Louis V. I'm not sure how he is a cousin of Anne of Cleves either, or if that's an inacurracy on Hirst's part. In the 16th century a "cousin" was basically anybody with a degree of kinship, not necessarily a first or second cousin, so that makes things a wee bit messy when trying to track down relationships between relatives.

If anybody finds out any other info about him, please add to the character page: http://tudorswiki.sho.com/page/Duke+Philip+of+Bavaria"
That what I was feeling too, he's just a Duke, not Duke of Bavaria.
I set on feeling that Philip is Philipp, the younger brother of Otto Henry, Court Palatine (Which was a province/region of Bavaria).
Also, Philipp and Otto's mentor & protector Frederick favored Lutheranism, in fact he got in trouble Charles V because of it, perhaps that's where the religious aspect comes from. Also, both Philipp and Otto died childless, perhaps Philipp was holding out for Mary.
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angelosdaughter
angelosdaughter
27. RE: Episode 8 : What Phillip is courting Princess Mary?
May 21 2009, 8:16 AM EDT | Post edited: May 21 2009, 8:19 AM EDT
"Right on LNor19! Now that I've compared the birthdates of Mary & Phlipp (duh) it makes so much sense. Here's a few more articles if anyone wants to read them:

"The [Landshut War of Succession] ended in 1505 with the death of Elisabeth and her husband Ruprecht of the Palatinate and a decision through arbitration by Emperor Maximilian on 30 July 1505 at the Reichstag at Cologne. The two grandsons of George, Otto Henry (Otto-Heinrich) and Philipp, retained Palatinate-Neuburg (Junge Pfalz), a fragmented region from the upper Danube over Franconia to the northern part of the Upper Palatinate." (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfalz-Neuburg )

Like LNor19 said, it could be that this Philipp was simply titled Count Palatine of Neuburg, but was effectively considered a Duke by the English. "Two brothers, first under regency of Frederick II, Elector Palatine: Otto Henry, 1505–59 (Elector Palatine from 1556) and Philipp, 1505–48." From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfalz-Neuburg#Counts_Palatine_of_Neuburg

Maybe?? Where is Chapuys when you need him? :-)
"
Chapuys was long gone (What a pity! he was our best source of court gossip.) by the time Mary was courted by the mysterious Phillip.
I have to think Erickson and Porter got their info from some primary document. I don't understand why they didn't cite it.
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Nofretete
Nofretete
28. RE: Episode 8 : What Phillip is courting Princess Mary?
May 21 2009, 8:26 AM EDT | Post edited: May 21 2009, 8:26 AM EDT
"That what I was feeling too, he's just a Duke, not Duke of Bavaria.
I set on feeling that Philip is Philipp, the younger brother of Otto Henry, Court Palatine (Which was a province/region of Bavaria).
Also, Philipp and Otto's mentor & protector Frederick favored Lutheranism, in fact he got in trouble Charles V because of it, perhaps that's where the religious aspect comes from. Also, both Philipp and Otto died childless, perhaps Philipp was holding out for Mary."
If it was that guy, which I think is likely, I wonder why they called him Duke of Bavaria. It must have been a mistake. Palatine is NOT a part of Bavaria. At least most definitely not today. Borders might have been different back then, but I don't think Bavaria stretched ever that far to the north west.
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Brooke9/7
Brooke9/7
29. RE: Episode 8 : What Phillip is courting Princess Mary?
May 21 2009, 8:28 AM EDT | Post edited: May 21 2009, 8:28 AM EDT
"But Palatine is not Bavaria, not even a part of Bavaria. "
The new duchy (1505) of Palatinate-Neuburg was created out of a division of the Duchy of Bavaria. "The two grandsons of George, Otto Henry (Otto-Heinrich) and Philipp, retained (Junge Pfalz), a fragmented region from the upper Danube over Franconia to the northern part of the Upper Palatinate. Neuburg an der Donau was chosen as the capital of the new state. " from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landshut_War_of_Succession

Palatinate-Neuburg's capitol was Neuburg an der Donau (Neuburg on the Danube) and it is very much situated in Bavaria.
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Brooke9/7
Brooke9/7
30. RE: Episode 8 : What Phillip is courting Princess Mary?
May 21 2009, 8:37 AM EDT | Post edited: May 21 2009, 8:37 AM EDT
"Chapuys was long gone (What a pity! he was our best source of court gossip.) by the time Mary was courted by the mysterious Phillip.
I have to think Erickson and Porter got their info from some primary document. I don't understand why they didn't cite it. "
I know! in any case, Chapuys would have had an issue with Mary being courted by a Lutheran nobleman; he would have written many letters about this...Double Duh! Thanks AD!
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Nofretete
Nofretete
31. RE: Episode 8 : What Phillip is courting Princess Mary?
May 21 2009, 8:39 AM EDT | Post edited: May 21 2009, 8:39 AM EDT
"The new duchy (1505) of Palatinate-Neuburg was created out of a division of the Duchy of Bavaria. "The two grandsons of George, Otto Henry (Otto-Heinrich) and Philipp, retained (Junge Pfalz), a fragmented region from the upper Danube over Franconia to the northern part of the Upper Palatinate. Neuburg an der Donau was chosen as the capital of the new state. " from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landshut_War_of_Succession

Palatinate-Neuburg's capitol was Neuburg an der Donau (Neuburg on the Danube) and it is very much situated in Bavaria."
Ah, I get how this happened. Palatine has a double meaning. It's the name of a region, as we have it today, but it also means something along the line of 'duchy' or 'county', which it is in the new-founded Pfalz-Neuburg as you say.

The German wikipedia says the same thing. This is rather funny to me, because anyone from todays Palatine would kill you for suggesting they were Bavarian!

So, I guess we found our Phillip! :-)
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Nofretete
Nofretete
32. RE: Episode 8 : What Phillip is courting Princess Mary?
May 21 2009, 9:02 AM EDT | Post edited: May 21 2009, 9:02 AM EDT
Brooke, it's definitely him! I just read a bio on him on wikisource and they mention Mary!

For anyone, who reads German:
http://de.wikisource.org/wiki/ADB:Philipp_(Pfalzgraf_bei_Rhein)

If it weren't so darn long I'd translate it, but maybe someone will find an English version. Or maybe I'l just translate the part about Mary, if anyone is interested.
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Brooke9/7
Brooke9/7
33. RE: Episode 8 : What Phillip is courting Princess Mary?
May 21 2009, 9:03 AM EDT | Post edited: May 21 2009, 9:03 AM EDT
"Ah, I get how this happened. Palatine has a double meaning. It's the name of a region, as we have it today, but it also means something along the line of 'duchy' or 'county', which it is in the new-founded Pfalz-Neuburg as you say.

The German wikipedia says the same thing. This is rather funny to me, because anyone from todays Palatine would kill you for suggesting they were Bavarian!

So, I guess we found our Phillip! :-)"
Oh I see what you mean (sorry if I sounded like a %^$#@)...the definitions of the Holy Roman Empire secular princedom and title versus the modern Rhineland-Palatinate region! It now makes sense from that angle. I have only been to Hesse and Bavaria. I heard the R-P is lovely (is the Black Forest in R-P?)

Yep, I think you gals nailed it! I wonder what else can we dig up about the relationship between him and Anne of Cleves? Did her sister Sibylle marry any dukes or count palatines?
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Nofretete
Nofretete
34. RE: Episode 8 : What Phillip is courting Princess Mary?
May 21 2009, 9:15 AM EDT | Post edited: May 21 2009, 9:15 AM EDT
"Oh I see what you mean (sorry if I sounded like a %^$#@)...the definitions of the Holy Roman Empire secular princedom and title versus the modern Rhineland-Palatinate region! It now makes sense from that angle. I have only been to Hesse and Bavaria. I heard the R-P is lovely (is the Black Forest in R-P?)

Yep, I think you gals nailed it! I wonder what else can we dig up about the relationship between him and Anne of Cleves? Did her sister Sibylle marry any dukes or count palatines?"
The Black Forest isn't in Palatine, no. It's in Baden-Würtemberg. Can't say much about Palatine though, as I'm from the other end of the country. :-)

Phillip's bio says that him and Mary were officially betrothed. He gave her that diamond cross for theit betrothal and Henry gave him valuable presents as well. But he had to get a ratification of their marriage contract from his brother and Louis before 1540, which he couldn't obtain in time! The contract said he had to agree that Mary was illegitimate and had no claim on the succession and they wouldn't agree on it among other things!
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Brooke9/7
Brooke9/7
35. RE: Episode 8 : What Phillip is courting Princess Mary?
May 21 2009, 9:51 AM EDT | Post edited: May 21 2009, 9:51 AM EDT
Great info! you should definitely add it to the page. Thanks for finding that article! Germany is such a nice place. I have been to the regions between Koln and Munich by rail and autobahn. Now that's some lovely countryside (and I love the food and of course the bier). Do you find this valuable?    
Nofretete
Nofretete
36. RE: Episode 8 : What Phillip is courting Princess Mary?
May 21 2009, 10:07 AM EDT | Post edited: May 21 2009, 10:07 AM EDT
"Great info! you should definitely add it to the page. Thanks for finding that article! Germany is such a nice place. I have been to the regions between Koln and Munich by rail and autobahn. Now that's some lovely countryside (and I love the food and of course the bier)."
No problem! There's more to their marriage debacle. I think I might attempt translating the bio part about Mary. He seems to have tried again in 1543, insisting that Mary was his wife, since they had promised each other to never marry anyone else at their betrothal, but Henry got pissed at that and basically threw him out of England!

He seems to have been in a depressive bout even before his second voyage to England. Apparently he holed himself up in a remote hut in the woods with just a servant and a cook between 11. - 27. Februar 1542. No marriage and no money, he was one unhappy fellow!

(Frankly, I don't like Munich at all, but the countryside is definitely pretty. *g*)
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LNor19
LNor19
37. RE: Episode 8 : What Phillip is courting Princess Mary?
May 21 2009, 10:17 AM EDT | Post edited: May 21 2009, 10:17 AM EDT
Very rough translation:
"Finally, it is that in 1539 the prospect of Henry VIII's daughter Mary on. A Nürnberger Kaufmann, Joachim Gundel finger, had a Secretary Henry VIII in the talks noted that his king like his daughter Maria to a German prince would marry. That beat Duke P. Gundel finger before which the Secretary is not rejected. Through confidential Correspondenz was the case with Philipp's knowledge and continue to operate as this suggested that the king's visit would like to see made to P. in November 1539 on his way to England, accompanied by Ottheinrich Hofmeister, the Lord of Haydeck and its Registrar Sebastian Pemerler. On 6 P. December came via Antwerp to London and immediately took the action under a speedy process. P. took only two articles of the Heirathsvertrags kick. His ruffled honor, however, Maria an English statute, as an empire was born and misbegotten successionsunfähig means to see and he feared a prescription for 10000 f1. annual Wittwengelds not teach them. The latter concerns the conscientious prince fought in England with the idea that the prescription until his death was due, and until then could be its location due to its prospects for the cure for a long time to change. It was noted that this prescription only a formal thing. Even religious concerns had P. then, because he deals with Henry VIII against everybody, except the emperor and the empire, should unite, but he also wanted to exempt the Pope. But since Henry is not nachgab, P. signed the treaty but to Greenwich 24th January 1540. He was very vortheilhaft for him, because there were 40 000 fl. him as Heirathsgut gold and 12 000 fl at annual pension promised, while his Wittwer only devoted 10 000 fl. With 4000 foot and 1000 horse he Anyone against the king, emperor and empire except serve and the English statutes against the Papstthum good read."
Cont..
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LNor19
LNor19
38. RE: Episode 8 : What Phillip is courting Princess Mary?
May 21 2009, 10:19 AM EDT | Post edited: May 21 2009, 10:19 AM EDT
Cont...
"The contract was declared void, if not before P. Pentecost 1540 the Ratification Ottheinrich, the Elector Frederick and Duke Ludwig teach. The engagement, however, was immediately celebrated with P. bride a diamond cross in Werth fl. of 2500, this made him a gem rubies and diamonds for 1500 fl. donated. At the farewell was given by King P. 7000 fl. worth full devotion and silver tableware and his entourage was richly presented. As on 20 P. February after Heidelberg came back, he started immediately because of Ratification to act. But the Elector rejected, on the advice of the Bishop of Augsburg, the article on the illegitimate origins of Mary and some based on religious considerations and some because of the emperor."
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LNor19
LNor19
39. RE: Episode 8 : What Phillip is courting Princess Mary?
May 21 2009, 10:21 AM EDT | Post edited: May 21 2009, 10:21 AM EDT
Cont...
"Thus passed the time limit under fruitless negotiations with the Elector. Finally, 1541 was by P. Gundel Finger in London to explain that he is the illegitimate birth Successionsunfähigkeit and Mary could not stand, but that he was ready, in a addition to any contract to waive inheritance Marias. But all ideas Gundel Fingers [25] were in vain. On 13 June 1541 he was awarded the decision that the Heirath it was not possible: the deadline had elapsed, the principal article rejected. Meanwhile, had the financial ruin of Philipp's clear. His debts were particularly through Anlehen with usurious interest on the enormous sum of 408 561 fl. increased. His land was sold or transferred to his brother."
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