I am curious as to what other people think: Was Sir Roland de Velville (de Velevill, de Veleville) really King Henry VII's illegitimate son, and half-brother to Henry VIII, or do you side with S.B. Chrimes that he was not?
I am on the side that he was. Looking at the concepts and opinions that Professor Chrimes uses as evidence, there are many, many holes. He seems to have used incorrect dates and locations, and some faulty arguments. Him, and his supporters and some historians that use him as a source, even have the incorrect battle in which he was knighted!
One of the ones that sticks with me is the argument that, had he been a half-brother to Henry VIII, his granddaughter Katherine Tudor of Berain would have been a cousin to Queen Elizabeth I, and when Katherine's eldest son Thomas Salisbury (Salusbury) was implicated as part of the Babington plot, Elizabeth would have never executed him because he would have been kin. I think even the people who just watch the show and don't know the history can pull that theory apart! Him being kin to the Queen made him a bigger target, not a smaller one!
I think that he was made constable of Beaumaris castle in Wales, was a servant of the body to Henry VIII, as well as was generally accepted as Henry VII's son in their time and until 1967 it was never questioned, all proves a royal bastard.
Anyone else's thoughts? I would love to hear something from either side of the fence.
This hits me deep, because he's one of my great-great-great-(etc.)-grandfathers. If he was illegitimate but still blood, that makes King Henry VIII one of my great-uncles. Being a descendant of a Tudor is cool to begin with (and Katherine of Berain's father was a Welsh Tudor anyway), but having to guess and pick through the differing historian's opinions can be either enlightening or upsetting.

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Many of us have read Hilary Mantel's novel "Wolf Hall." Many of us would like to read it but perhaps have not had the chance or the time, and some of us are ambivalent about reading it. Whatever the case, this thread is meant to be a place to discuss the novel in detail and also to discuss some of the representations of Tudor life and characters that Mantel offers us.

The novel is controversial, due to both its writing style and its presentation of Thomas Cromwell in a sympathetic light.

The sequel to Wolf Hall is due to come out in May of this year, so this is a good time to read it if that is something that you have wanted to do.

I think a controversial work is a very exciting thing to discuss and I hope that this thread will be lively and entertaining to us all, no matter what your opinion of the novel is. . You may find it brilliant or you may find it frustrating. It is OK to like it or not like it. If you really hate it you will probably stop reading, but if it keeps your interest enough to make valid points then that is welcomed.

I am looking for other people's insights to this novel and to share my own. I am also hoping to be able to discuss the text in detail because I think it is an important contemporary piece of fiction about a subject we are all fascinated by: the Court of King Henry VIII. We know the characters, we know the age, we know the story. So let's lend our minds to this book as well as allow the book to show us something. Let's engage with it as Tudor enthusiasts and see where it takes us.

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'Tis yet another Tudor Game,
For creativity, imagination, fun or shame,
Thou must remember the name of the game this tyme,
One must maketh the next line rhyme!

(Translation: Make the next line rhyme with the previous. Olde English language optional!)


Once upon a time in 1527.....

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Odd way to describe it but who's death really was the best scene...historically or visually.

I have to say the whole of Anne's final episode was excellent (i thought). However I also thought Catherine (of aragon's) death was sad too (though not an execution).

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Now that the series is over I want to ask: Were there characters that you did not like how they were being portrayed and why?

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Did I miss something on any of the episodes, how is it that Lady Mary and others are convinced or at least suspicious that CP is a reformer? I know that in reality she was but as far as the show is concerned I have not noticed any scene(s) where she may have given away any inclination to her true faith to have the Catholic faction already after her

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I am trying to remember which episode it is where Buckingham says that it's his crown as a "direct descendant of Edward II" and that Henry has only a "bastard's claim on his mother's side" (I think I am quoting correctly).
My argument is with the idea that Henry's only claim came from his mother, while in fact he had three technical claims (maybe stated for drama, or anger in the heat of the moment that he would focus on the weakest link?). He was descended from the Beauforts through his grandmother, which while bastards at birth were legitimated, and the claim was from the oldest surviving son of Edward III, John of Gaunt, who was the father of Henry IV and so on. His grandmother, Margaret Beaufort was the remaining Beaufort claimant. As well, his Tudor grandfather was the son of the Dowager Queen Catherine of Valois, wither married or not, they were recognized as half-siblings by the court of King Henry VI.
The statement on Elizabeth of York's declared bastardy is not inaccurate, but of a poor logic. In order to disinherit the "Boys in the Tower" and make himself the legitimate heir to his older brother Edward IV, Richard III declared his brother's marriage to Elizabeth Woodville void and all of their children bastards. However, it does not seem that the court took this decision seriously, even in Richards lifetime. Despite Stafford having a claim to the throne, I find fault that he says that Henry's only claim was through Elizabeth of York.

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I am descended from King Henry VII through his illegitimate son, Roland de Velville (see my other posts on the question of if he is a true son or not). It is on my father's mother's side of the family. The Sisson family of Rhode Island were one of the founding families of Portsmouth, and so the family tree has been extremely well kept, as well as DNA research has been done to see who is blood and who is not (our branch of the tree tested positive). Richard and Mary Sisson married their children to the Lawton family, most likely because they themselves had wealth and power in Rhode Island, but the Lawton's had a connection to the Royal family. They actually married three of their children to Lawtons, but only my great-great-etc-grandfather George had children with his wife, Sarah Lawton-Sisson. Her mother, Elizabeth Salisbury, was descended from Katherine Tudor of Berain, through her second son from her first husband, John Salisbury, who was the heir after her eldest son was executed. Katherine Tudor was the granddaughter of Roland de Veleville through his daughter Jane. Roland was considered Henry VIII's half-brother by Henry VIII and other contemporaries, and was given favors by Henry. Katherine was a ward and considered royal cousin to Elizabeth when she was queen (Katherine was about 3 or 4 years old when Elizabeth took the throne, as Roland was about 17 when Henry was born). I have the full tree if anyone wants to see it. As I am descended by both grandmothers and grandfathers, depending on the generation, as well as the family coming to America, I can understand why it would be lost. In fact, it was only through my historical research on the family that I discovered this- I can trace my specific Sisson grandfathers back two generations in England, up to the time of the Reformation, but can't get farther then that. We don't have the family bibles, but like I said, I do have the big list-style tree/

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Most of us have favourite scenes in the series. I thought it would be interesting to run a poll to find out which one is the most popular overall. I will start the suggestions off with the following:-

Henry & Anne's Volta Dance
Henry as a young man ( with the flashbacks to his younger days, final episode)
Anne's Execution Episode

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It is not known when she was born, i always felt she was leo, looks so much with her.

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